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Offline CyberusTopic starter

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Questions Questions
« on: February 25, 2003, 07:44:20 PM »
Hi,
Some of you may remember a post of mine from last week, saying that I'd been away from the Amiga scene for 12 years. Well, since then, I've bought a second hand towered A1200 with Apollo 040 accelerator, and am just beginning to get my head around the Amiga again, not to mention WB3.0!

I've done a lot of catching up, but still have a long way to go. So, forgive me for all the questions, and please correct any errors in my understanding...

1) PPC - The Power PC cards are accelerator cards for the A1200 (and A4000?) right. On board these cards are Motorola chips later down the development line than the 68k series of processors? These chips were also used by Macs?

2) Assuming 1) above is roughly correct, is there any other difference in PPC architecture from the A1200? What devices do they support. (For example, using PC soundcards, graphics cards, SCSI devices). How much memory do they support?

3) How much backward compatability do they afford, and what OS runs on these boards?

4)Now, here's the bit I really want to know about:
The AmigaONE. I have read some stuff on the Eyetech site, but am not really any the wiser. The G3/G4 processors are used by Macs right? (who manufactures them BTW, Motorola?) Now what is the architecture like, and if it is a big step away from the classic Amiga architecture, what makes it an Amiga?
I understand that there is an A1200 port on the A1, and this will allow backwards compatability, by being able to access the old architecture. Is this essentially the same as the 'Siamese System' idea, or nothing like it?

Please point me to any relevant sites if you can. It's just it'll take me a LOT of reading to catch up. Hey, I'm a PC defector (well that's what we HAD to use at Uni!) who's coming back!

Any help appreciated!
Many thanks!  

Oh P.S. I'd rather you pitch the tech stuff below me rather than over my head. It's been a long time!
 ;-)
I like Amigas
 

Offline SilvrDrgn

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2003, 09:01:49 PM »
1) PowerPC accelerator cards for A1200/A4000 have _both_ the 680x0 chip and a PPC chip attached.  The software you need to load does what is called context switching between the two when you're using the PPC because the AmigaOS software in its OS 3.9 and lower version cannot run natively on the PPC.  So, that runs on the 680x0 chip and your math intensive stuff, like datatypes for decoding images, can run on the PPC.  Yes, PPC chips are used by Macs.

2) A1200 can support PCI cards, but you have to put the machine in a tower and add what's called a Mediator board to it.  The PCI cards plug into that.  Depending on the accelerator card you get, that will determine the amount of memory you can have.  The machine can easily support 128 MB RAM, or more if you have a card that can take more.

3) Backward compatibility with older versions of the OS is sketchy, especially if you have a PPC.  Typically the PPC software needs to have the most recent version of the OS installed.

4) IBM also manufatures PPC chips, but I don't think any of those are used for classic Amiga or AmigaOne systems (could be mistaken?).  In my opinion, the OS makes it an Amiga.  Doesn't matter what hardware it's running on because that's transparent to the user when it's running.  I believe that the A1200 port on the A1 you mention has been eliminated from the design, not sure.
Michael
 

Offline yoodoo

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2003, 09:07:43 PM »
1) close enough.  PPC are completely different cpu architecture to 68k, but with an "emulation" core built-in to help Apple make the transition all those years ago.

2)the A1 and Pegasos are both ppc platforms and support PCI and AGP. Not sure of how much memory you can stick - 1Gb at least? (2x512Mb)

3) Linux runs on both boards. Mac-on-linux runs very nicely on A1 and presumably Pegasos too. AmigaOS4 will run on A1. MorphOS runs on Pegasos.

Infighting between the two main factions and ebullient swaggering from various development leaders has more or less killed the opportunity of you purchasing one board or the other and then running one OS or the other (probably the preferred option for the silent majority)

The A1 is (will be) an Amiga because it will run AmigaOs.  The Pegasos is not an Amiga, because it won't officially support AmigaOS. MorphOS is a new OS that began life on the old phase5 PPC boards. Both will run AOS3x apps using different emulation methods.  Most modern apps (with rtg and rts) will probably run fine.  Your mileage may vary with other Classic apps and games.  Both systems will run UAE well enough to play A500 games.

Both A1 and Pegasos shipped in small amounts with G3 cpus. The updated A1-XE (with G4 at 800MHz) has shipped to many developers and is going out to consumers anyday now. The Pegasos is undergoing similar revision (and theoretically some nice looking extras) to be released in September. All announcement dates should be taken with the usual pinch of salt.

The AmigaOne-A1200 bridge  board is highly unlikely to appear in its proposed form by Escena.  Our best hope is Jens :)

Most of the Amiga sites are poorly maintained as the folk developing the system are strapped for cash and working very hard. Your best bet is to flick through Amiga.org and Ann.lu and try to filter out the posturing.

Most Pegasos sites look pretty, because Genesi seem to have too much cash to flash. ;)



 

Offline Atheist

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2003, 09:50:45 PM »
Quote

Cyberus wrote:
Hi,

1) PPC - The Power PC cards are accelerator cards for the A1200 (and A4000?) right. On board these cards are Motorola chips later down the development line than the 68k series of processors? These chips were also used by Macs?


Do you want the short answer or the long one?

68000 to 68060 are CISC CPUs. Complex Instructon Set Computer (I thought the last C was for Code, but wasn't). The Amiga OS works on any of these CPUs (68010 was a problem, though.) The 68060 had a problem as well. It had to have a library externally available, because moto didn't put in the entire floating point math unit (FPU) inside. Power PC 603e and 604 and 604e are RISC chips. Reduced Instruction Set Computer. They were used in macs. And on the Amigas, I believe that, EVERY acceleator that has been made to date included a 68040 or 68060. No version of AOS can run on a RISC, until now. What was done, was the computer would start, and the 68040 or 060 would run AOS, then a program would catch some pieces of AOS that were re-written that could work on the PPC, and only that was run there, then control returned to the 68040, or 060. Then some compilers were released that could make a standalone program run in the PPC CPU only. That was when you REALLY saw a speed increase. Remember, the OS was still on the 040, or 060.

The AmigaOne uses a G3 or G4 (those would have been 605 and 606, but they quit using that number scheme). AOS 4.0 is the first, entirely RISC, implementation of the OS (as well as morphos). IT WILL FLY!!! Compatability with old software will be achieved by looking at an instruction, then running RISC instuctions that produce the same result as using an instruction on the 68000 series. AOS 4.0 is written by Hyperion who have total access to the original source code of every release of Amiga OS. As well as access to all the schematics of the custom chips (rumour is, some don't exist anymore).
I don't know how morph os came about. The full access to source is why I am glued to AOS4.0, and will persevere all set backs.

Personally, I am dissapointed with the RISC concept. It uses smaller instructions than CISC. The idea being, one instruction, one clock cycle. RISC insructions are 1, 2, 3 (and maybe even 4, not sure) instructions long, and some engineers felt that, well, a RISC instruction doesn't necessarily do anything in 1 or 2 of the 2 or 3 instructions. So let's make 1 instruction do 1 action. Good sentiment, but I don't like it because, Amiga code was exceptional, and compact. Now, I feel, it will be unnecessarily bloated because 3 insrtuctions will use 3 bytes on disk and (3 instrutions * 4 bytes) = 12 bytes in ram (someone help me, am I right?).

I believe I answered most of what you were asking about.

Any corrections are most welcome.

Amiga! On the rebound!
\\"Which would you buy? The Crappy A1200, 15 years out of date... or the Mobile Phone that I have?\\" -- bloodline
So I guess that A500, 600, 1000, 2000, CDTV, CD32, are pure garbage then? Thanks for posting here.
 

Offline Atheist

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2003, 10:09:33 PM »
The prices of the equipment will shock you. But understand that they are on a shoestring budget, and producing limited runs. That, of course, translates into absurd costs of sourcing components, and no lines of credit. You know, money up front.

But AmigaOne (AOS4.0) is trying to bring back a REAL world of computing, one that was supposed to be the "norm". No conflicting drivers, constant reboots when changing simple settings, install "wizards" with an IQ of 25, countless unknown processes running in the backgrond, safe mode reboots, registry (aaargh!) and it just goes on and on and.....

How about re-installs? Try running ms-dos games.

Get an AmigaOne AOS4.0, and don't look back!!! Fun times are just up ahead...

Amiga! The golden path!
\\"Which would you buy? The Crappy A1200, 15 years out of date... or the Mobile Phone that I have?\\" -- bloodline
So I guess that A500, 600, 1000, 2000, CDTV, CD32, are pure garbage then? Thanks for posting here.
 

Offline Wain

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2003, 10:23:09 PM »
Quote

Personally, I am dissapointed with the RISC concept. It uses smaller instructions than CISC. The idea being, one instruction, one clock cycle. RISC insructions are 1, 2, 3 (and maybe even 4, not sure) instructions long, and some engineers felt that, well, a RISC instruction doesn't necessarily do anything in 1 or 2 of the 2 or 3 instructions.


There isn't any real distinction between RISC and CISC chips anymore.  Pentium Chips are just as RISC as G4's, and vice versa.  We have reached a middle ground and obliterated the extreme camps that gave the distinction any meaning in the first place.

Professional Expatriate
 

Offline Kay

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2003, 10:40:24 PM »
> Any corrections are most welcome.

Nah, I think you got most of you right. I'd just like to add something about the RISC/CISC issue. I think the story goes something like this: In the early days, CPU instruction sets were gradually getting more and more complex, with more and more instructions being added. I think some of the reason behind this was that back then, high level programming languages weren't all that common. More instructions meant less work for the programmer. However, as high level languages like C became the norm, the high number of instructions made compiler construction, and especially optimization, trickier. Furthermore, it turns out that out of the myriads of instructions in excistence, only a few were frequently used. This motivated the development of RISC processors. A simpler instruction set has the advantages that...
1. ...it makes it easier to construct optimized compilers for the chip.
2. ...it allows the chip designers to focus on getting a few really important instructions right, rather than having to implement a myriad of mostly redundant instructions.

Personally, I really like the RISC concept. While you probably are right that it makes the code somewhat larger (consider that fewer instructions should mean that each of them can be made shorter, though), I think the advantages outweighs it.

Kay
 

Offline Kay

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2003, 11:03:51 PM »
> There isn't any real distinction between RISC and CISC chips anymore. Pentium Chips are just as
> RISC as G4's, and vice versa. We have reached a middle ground and obliterated the extreme camps
> that gave the distinction any meaning in the first place.

While the distinction has been diminished, I don't think it has been completely removed yet. It is true, though, that modern processors are rarely (or never?), pure RISC or pure CISC.

Kay
 

Offline tonyw

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2003, 11:21:04 PM »
Come on, you guys, stop talking about RISC/CISC already and tell him about the REAL A1 stuff, the A1 hardware!

The PPC processor chip is the next generation after the 680x0 CPUs that Commodore used. IBM and Motorola got together many years ago and developed a common design to compete with Intel's x86 range. Although the PPC range is still lagging behind the Intel range in sheer speed and performance, it was designed properly, rather than the patch-on-patch design of x86 CPUs. PPCs are made by IBM and Motorola, but most are soaked up by Apple for their Macs (so what remains for us is expensive).

On the A1 boards, as on x86 motherboards, the CPU is connected to the local memory through a "Southbridge", and to the PCI bus through a "Northbridge" chip (is that the right way around?). These chips (the "chipset" of the motherboard) handle the differing data and control protocols of the memory, PCI bus and CPU chip. Until about a year ago, there was no Northbridge for PPC that could handle the AGP bus that modern graphics cards demand. Then Mai brought out their "Articia" chipset for embedded PPC, with AGP support. Apple have their own chipset for the Macs, but it's not for sale.

The PPC is rather like the 68k series - lots of registers (32 integer, 32 floating point). It can operate in little- or big-endian mode, but in AOS4 I think it's being used in big-endian mode, like the 68k series.

The x86 Intel series processors are little-endian, which means that a multiple-byte number like 0x00001234 appears in memory as 34, 12, 00, 00. In a big-endian machine like the 68k, it appears as 00, 00, 12, 34. The main difference is the order that the hardware reads the memory addresses. But it makes it difficult to plug in devices designed for x86 and connect them to a CPU that's big-endian. Somewhere the data all has to be reversed.

Worse still, more complex devices like graphics cards have ROMs on board with their own initialisation code (written in x86 code,of course). Remember the auto-configure magic of the original Amigas?

The A1 firmware (BIOS, if you like) has a minimal x86 emulator in it, that can read the init code from a PCI device and emulate it on the PPC side, to get a graphics card up and running.
So a lot of work has been done to get to the stage where x86 PC hardware can be connected through a PCI/AGP bus, to a PPC CPU chip. Then software has to be written for the PPC to make all this new hardware work, before you can even start to think about interfacing Amiga software to the new hardware.

Fortunately, most of this work has now been completed. Limited quantities of the A1 boards are already out with low-level developers, running Linux and other metal-hitting software to get the interfacing right. Every week or so another device is made to behave in this new environment. The list of working hardware grows continually.

Other developers are working on the AOS4 software. It started out life as AOS 3.1, since Haage and Partner kept the sources to AOS 3.5.
So AOS 4 has been completely re-written for the PPC. It was a mess of C, BCPL, and assembler, poorly documented. Now, we are told, it's nearly all pure PPC, although some Workbench utilities are still in m68k code. They can stay that way, because a fast emulator has to be provided to run old software, anyway.

Much of the porting work has been performed on PPC add-ons like Cyberstorms and Blizzards, but now that real A1s are available, work continues on the real thing. We are told that AOS4 is in beta state on the new hardware. Third parties are writing graphics card drivers.

tony
 

Offline Kay

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2003, 12:25:15 AM »
> Come on, you guys, stop talking about RISC/CISC already and tell him about the REAL A1 stuff, the
> A1 hardware!

Heh, sorry about that. :-) It's easy to get carried away when someone brings up one of the biggest topics in computing history. You don't want me to get started on little endian versus big endian, do you (both have their advantages, but once again, I favour the PPC's way of doing things)?

Okay, I'll try coming up with something useful instead. Cyberus, if you are interested in a next-gen Amiga system, you should get an AmigaOne. I do not recommend the hybrid PPC acccelerator cards, as they are:
*Very expensive.
*A bit unreliable.
*Hard to get repaired if/when they break down.
*Surprisingly slow (mostly thanks to the need for switching forth and back between the 68k and the PPC).

The AmigaOne is the natural successor to the classic Amiga. It is basically a standard PPC motherboard. The PPC is in a sense a natural successor to the 68k series (Motorola went from 68k to PPC, Mac went from 68k to PPC, and now Amiga is going from 68k to PPC). It is somewhat slower than x86 processors at the moment, but still more than fast enough for anything on the Amiga. It tends to be revised in fewer, but more signicant leaps compared to the x86 family. It has lower power consumption and runs cooler, and it might be possible that you can do without a CPU fan for the slowest AmigaOne. For a good overview of the AmigaOne motherboards, look here.

The AmigaOne currently only runs Linux (and MacOS through MacOnLinux), but once Hyperion finishes porting AmigaOS to the PPC, the AmigaOne will be its main hardware platform. AOS4 is shaping up pretty well, and is the main reason why I have ordered an AmigaOne myself. I highly recommend that you go check out the feature list. This is probably the biggest revision of AmigaOS ever. In addition to the features on the list, Hyperion recently announced that SNAP will be integrated into the OS. This means AmigaOS will get highly optimized 2d drivers for all the popular modern graphics cards, and that 3d drivers can be developed quicker and more easily. For a list of chipsets currently supported by SNAP, look here. AmigaOS will also benefit from future development of SNAP.

After many years of disappointments, it finally looks like the Amiga has a chance to come back to life. You are very welcome to join us! :-)

Kay
 

Offline tonyw

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2003, 12:38:54 AM »
Well done, Kay. You said in a couple of paragraphs what I took two pages to say.

:-D

tony
 
 

Offline CyberusTopic starter

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Re: Questions Questions
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2003, 01:04:08 AM »
Thanks guys, you really have helped answer my questions!

.....I guess it's time to start saving then!

Regards
Cyberus
I like Amigas