Where Do We Draw The Line?

[B00tDisk]

Wayne wrote:
It's really a catch-22.

I like XP.  It does everything I think an OS should, and everything I think AmigaOS should have done.  I don't think XP is perfect by any stretch of imagination, but I like it because it includes a lot of things that I don't have to even think about, like multi-user support, an IP stack, browser (even if I choose to use Mozilla), and media players.  

On the other hand, AmigaOS has none of that stuff to make it end-user friendly (like mom and pop friendly, not Amiga-geek friendly), but Amiga users always whine about how "putting all that crap in would add bloat and eliminate choices which is anti-Amiga" but that's really short-sighted.  Memory and hard drives are cheap, especially for the outdated slower PPC systems, so stop {bleep}ing about the resources.

My choice is to take the time to write the damned OS correctly, where -- on installation -- the user can decide whether he wants a base (pretty much non-networked) stripped-down AmigaOS 4 (so they can add their own toys) or they can choose to add in an IP stack and a browser, media players, etcetera.  In other words, bundle absolutely everything with the OS, but make it 100% user-choice to install any part of it (where possible).  

In that respect (and don't start in on this but) I think Genesi initially had the hint of the right idea with the Superbundle.  Unfortunately their licensing and execution is pretty much kerplunkt.

Wayne

All very well said, Wayne.  I, too, like XP.  Issues with IE aside, it does everything I want very, very well.  It's installation is turnkey.  I've always said that while you can fault MS for a great many things, at least they've helped drive technology: I'd much, much rather be playing with a 120gb HD than the 170MB hard drive my first PC had (it eventually wound up with bad sectors, and I had doublespaced it, and installed Win'95...what a mess).

If AmigaOS had a big footprint and had the features of WinXP, I wouldn't mind in the least.  These are not the days of $200 per megabyte RAM any more.  Bring on the features!

[FastRobPlus]

I tend to draw the line at 1.3.  I just get that Kickstart disc near my maching and I get cold feet.  To much feature bloat if you ask me.

 :-)

[MiAmigo]

FastRobPlus wrote:
I tend to draw the line at 1.3.  I just get that Kickstart disc near my maching and I get cold feet.  To much feature bloat if you ask me.

 :-)

 :-D

[MiAmigo]

B00tDisk wrote:

Wayne wrote:
It's really a catch-22.

I like XP.  It does everything I think an OS should, and everything I think AmigaOS should have done.  I don't think XP is perfect by any stretch of imagination, but I like it because it includes a lot of things that I don't have to even think about, like multi-user support, an IP stack, browser (even if I choose to use Mozilla), and media players.  

On the other hand, AmigaOS has none of that stuff to make it end-user friendly (like mom and pop friendly, not Amiga-geek friendly), but Amiga users always whine about how "putting all that crap in would add bloat and eliminate choices which is anti-Amiga" but that's really short-sighted.  Memory and hard drives are cheap, especially for the outdated slower PPC systems, so stop {bleep}ing about the resources.

My choice is to take the time to write the damned OS correctly, where -- on installation -- the user can decide whether he wants a base (pretty much non-networked) stripped-down AmigaOS 4 (so they can add their own toys) or they can choose to add in an IP stack and a browser, media players, etcetera.  In other words, bundle absolutely everything with the OS, but make it 100% user-choice to install any part of it (where possible).  

In that respect (and don't start in on this but) I think Genesi initially had the hint of the right idea with the Superbundle.  Unfortunately their licensing and execution is pretty much kerplunkt.

Wayne

All very well said, Wayne.  I, too, like XP.  Issues with IE aside, it does everything I want very, very well.  It's installation is turnkey.  I've always said that while you can fault MS for a great many things, at least they've helped drive technology: I'd much, much rather be playing with a 120gb HD than the 170MB hard drive my first PC had (it eventually wound up with bad sectors, and I had doublespaced it, and installed Win'95...what a mess).

If AmigaOS had a big footprint and had the features of WinXP, I wouldn't mind in the least.  These are not the days of $200 per megabyte RAM any more.  Bring on the features!

Same here. I like XP. A lot. But I also like key lime pie, and pecan pie. Doesn't mean I like what those things do to me, in the end (no pun intended!), or the fact that there are always *ahem* 'leaner' alternatives. And, as far as fully-tweakable environments, like 0S3.9, there is a 'thin line' where its hard to tell the difference between enough and too much.

like 0S3.9, there is a 'thin line' where its hard to tell the difference between enough and too much.

With respect, no, there's not.  It's really an apples versus oranges comment.  What's "not enough" for one is obviously "too much" for someone else.  So.... In my own words, give the user everything, let THEM decide what to install (or not).

At 38 years old (and I'm sure a lot of you will get to feel the way I do), I just want an OS that does what I want without me having to futz with it, or download 100 add-ons, or "work for days to configure".  I, like most average computer users, just want something that pretty much makes the computer (and even the OS) a transparent extension of the way that I think.

The Web is one of those type inventions that literally changed the way I think, act, and work.  I know you guys are probably too young to remember this, but before there was "google", finding information about things was actually fairly difficult.  Now, I use google probably 100x per day.

The Amiga in 1985 was one of those inventions that changed the world.  Now I'm afraid the world has evolved to the point where creating a "groundbreaking" OS is impossible.  BeOS couldn't do it, Apple haven't done it, and Linux is actually going in the opposite direction from the "user-friendly world".

In 1985, the world of computing was all about geeks and kids.  Now, computers are very much a part of everyday life, from your car, to your Tivo, to your fridge.  The concept of "computing for the geek few" is so far outdated it's not even worth laughing about.  I'm very afraid that AmigaOS (and MorphOS) are still aimed at a 1985 audience that has long-since moved on to the real world.

Wayne

[MiAmigo]

Actually, its not an 'apples versus oranges' comment, from the point of view of what the hardware can handle. In that sense, there is a point where 'too much' can be a problem, if the hardware simply can not handle the work load. Its all fine and good for the (mostly uninformed) user to load up his or her machine with stuff, just because of desire or need to do so, and quite another, if the machine simply can not handle it. And, it becomes quite a problem for Tech Support, and yes, even forums like this one, when those users want to complain about apps that don't work, or games that run too slow. Taking that into account, I would say that the 'thin line' is somewhere between 'what I want', and truthfully assessing what my computer can handle. In other words, if you try to run everything on an A500, that can be run on a fully tricked out A4000T, you'd be in for a very rude awakening. Not every example, of course, would be that extreme, but, I wonder how many requests for help seen on this very forum, could be eliminated entirely, if people would just work within the specs of their particular machine. The thin line is proportionally made fatter by the disparity between people's wants, and their machine's actual capacities and abilities, or the lack thereof.

I wonder how many requests for help seen on this very forum, could be eliminated entirely, if people would just work within the specs of their particular machine.

None, because Amiga users have NEVER admitted that there even *is* a limit to the capabilities of any Amiga.

The thin line is proportionally made fatter by the disparity between people's wants, and their machine's actual capacities and abilities, or the lack thereof.

Exactly.  It's up to Eyetech/bplan to keep up, and essentially, they're now screwed into a corner where they simply can't.  They don't have the budget (or the manpower) of an Asus or an Apple.  I would regretfully say that the intervention of the "mini mac" closes a lot of doors for both AI and Genesi.  Unfortunately such a turn was infinitely predictable.

Wayne

[u_jakobsen]

Having helped quite a few users, I must disagree. Most users don't care for features of any given OS, but rather cares for what applications said platform provides. The smaller things like context-sensitive menus wouldn't really make upfor the fact that the Amiga still hasn't a decent Office-package like Microsoft Office/OpenOffice. When I use MatLab (a math program), I don't care wether it runs on a Linux-box or a Windowsmachine. The Amiga still has a slight edge over Windows, Linux and MAC-OS-X in the fact that the OS still isn't bloated. But sadly the kind of people who needs that kind of lean core aren't in great numbers.

[FastRobPlus]

Dang it MiAmigo!  Now you're making me actually think about something!

In my brief experience at Amiga.org, I think I've identified 3 different Amiga personality types:

- Those who are here for pure nostalgia or collecting. (I'm in this bucket 100%)

- Those that use Amiga and want to be more productive with it and even get away from the mainstream OS'es entirely.  These guys war over PPC vs Coldfire, OS 3.x vs 4.0 vs MorphOS, etc, but they all want the same outcome - a viable 21st century Amiga.

- Those that use other OS'es primarily, but originally fell in love Amiga because of its technical excellence.  These are the guys who wax nostalgic about the Amiga doing things at 7MHz that commodity-grade clones could not muster the power to do at 100MHz.

Anyway - to answer your original question. I think it’s the 3rd group that tries to get their classic Amiga to do more than it was ever designed to do. After all, that is why they originally fell in love with it.  The bigger the challenge, the more satisfaction they get if they make it work.  As an Amiga 2000 owner, I think you fall in this bucket too, but are recently beginning to feel that you're asking so much of your 2000 that it's unrealistic.

My point is - there are a lot of Amiga users who derive joy from trying to get their systems to do the impossible.  It's part of why they are here in the first place.

My point is - there are a lot of Amiga users who derive joy from trying to get their systems to do the impossible. It's part of why they are here in the first place.

Well spoken, but I would add that there's a fourth group.  

4) Those who fell in love with the Amiga in 198x and used it extensively, gaining many friends along the way but due to external factors (work, needs, whatever), they've had to accept the reality of computing and move on -- though they still love the Amiga if only for it's philosophy and sense of nostalgia.

[Desolator]

What group do I fit in?

I own several real Amigas, I run WinUAE on an x86 box solely dedicated to just that, and long for an A1 even if I got an iBook that blows it out of the water. The WinUAE setup is loaded with AmigaWriter, FxPaint 2.0 etc and is used for everything except webbrowsing which my mac handles.

Ofcourse, that's nostalgia in it but also because I like how WB works and its FUN computing.

[MiAmigo]

FastRobPlus wrote:
Dang it MiAmigo!  Now you're making me actually think about something!

In my brief experience at Amiga.org, I think I've identified 3 different Amiga personality types:

- Those who are here for pure nostalgia or collecting. (I'm in this bucket 100%)

- Those that use Amiga and want to be more productive with it and even get away from the mainstream OS'es entirely.  These guys war over PPC vs Coldfire, OS 3.x vs 4.0 vs MorphOS, etc, but they all want the same outcome - a viable 21st century Amiga.

- Those that use other OS'es primarily, but originally fell in love Amiga because of its technical excellence.  These are the guys who wax nostalgic about the Amiga doing things at 7MHz that commodity-grade clones could not muster the power to do at 100MHz.

Anyway - to answer your original question. I think it’s the 3rd group that tries to get their classic Amiga to do more than it was ever designed to do. After all, that is why they originally fell in love with it.  The bigger the challenge, the more satisfaction they get if they make it work.  As an Amiga 2000 owner, I think you fall in this bucket too, but are recently beginning to feel that you're asking so much of your 2000 that it's unrealistic.

My point is - there are a lot of Amiga users who derive joy from trying to get their systems to do the impossible.  It's part of why they are here in the first place.

:inquisitive:

You are super-correct, sir, on all accounts! Especially which category I fall into. It is my curse in this life to push the boundaries of everything I encounter, and the Amiga is no exception. It is also my curse (or gift) to never, ever admit that 'this thing can not be done' or 'this is not feasible' for whatever reason. So yes, I would like to see the Amiga reborn, fully realized, and have it once again take its place as the progenitor and purveyor of technological magic, as it once did. The funny thing? As 'amazing' (stir in a little sarcasm here) as PCs are today, nothing they've ever done has ever flat-out dumb-founded me, as the Amiga did, when it debuted. I think its the memory of that time that keeps us all coming back, and using a machine that, by all intents and purposes, died a long time ago. Its the memory of the wonders that keeps it alive in our hearts  (*choke!*).

[Hammer]

Wayne wrote:

My point is - there are a lot of Amiga users who derive joy from trying to get their systems to do the impossible. It's part of why they are here in the first place.

Well spoken, but I would add that there's a fourth group.  

4) Those who fell in love with the Amiga in 198x and used it extensively, gaining many friends along the way but due to external factors (work, needs, whatever), they've had to accept the reality of computing and move on -- though they still love the Amiga if only for it's philosophy and sense of nostalgia.

Well, even Microsoft’s Avalon 3D demo was influenced by Amiga nostalgia e.g. "boing demo". MS demonstrator’s MSDN blogs indicates he was ex-Amiga programmer and offered a link to one of Amiga historical sites.

Well, even Microsoft’s Avalon 3D demo was influenced by Amiga nostalgia e.g. "boing demo". MS demonstrator’s MSDN blogs indicates he was ex-Amiga programmer and offered a link to one of Amiga historical sites.

Yeah, I tried to tell TB that it wasn't intended as an insult to the Amiga.  He was rather rabid about it as I recall.

Wayne

[FastRobPlus]

Wayne wrote:

Well, even Microsoft’s Avalon 3D demo was influenced by Amiga nostalgia e.g. "boing demo". MS demonstrator’s MSDN blogs indicates he was ex-Amiga programmer and offered a link to one of Amiga historical sites.

Yeah, I tried to tell TB that it wasn't intended as an insult to the Amiga.  He was rather rabid about it as I recall.

Wayne

There are a LOT of ex-Amiga, Sierra, C64, Atari etc. folks influencing the US software and hardware industry even today!  Many of them are at the very highest levels of management or product development, and are essentialy designing the things they always wanted to design, but needed stong corporate backing to make a reality.

[beller]

FastRobPlus wrote:

There are a LOT of ex-Amiga, Sierra, C64, Atari etc. folks influencing the US software and hardware industry even today!  Many of them are at the very highest levels of management or product development, and are essentialy designing the things they always wanted to design, but needed stong corporate backing to make a reality.

I talked with Denny Atkin a few months ago (Denny Atkin's Best Amiga Tips and Secrets).  Denny is now working for Microsoft on Longhorn...I'd call that an Amiga guy who's near the center of power!

Bob