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Author Topic: The time nighs for Huygens to plunge onto Titan  (Read 8348 times)

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2005, 03:18:06 PM »
Quote

whabang wrote:
Quote
we have a duty to ensure that what will one day becomes space junk won't contaminate other worlds

Quite the contrary; It's our duty to contaminate as many worlds as possible. We cannot live on such worlds, but some Earth-organisms would thrive there.
It's all about evolution; survival of the fittest and all of that.


Yes, but we can only do that after we have made sure that there isn't already something else there.

Offline KennyR

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2005, 06:56:12 PM »
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whabang wrote:
Quite the contrary; It's our duty to contaminate as many worlds as possible. We cannot live on such worlds, but some Earth-organisms would thrive there.
It's all about evolution; survival of the fittest and all of that.


Statistically speaking, that fittest isn't likely to be us when you take the whole galaxy into account. ;-)
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2005, 06:57:46 PM »
Well, we DO fit in the galaxy, don't we? :crazy:
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

Offline blobrana

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2005, 02:50:14 AM »
@PMC
>>wonder what they'll find?

Hum,
Hydrocarbon rain that’ll cover the camera lenses… (Weird rain, that is ten times bigger than earth’s raindrops and they fall down a lot slower…)
But before that, as it settles on the soft `mud` it’ll pick up the faint glow of Saturn through the green sky.

And yeah, Galileo passed through the ion belt before it burned up. Though the fiery entry, as well as the huge atmospheric pressures would zap most stowaways.

Offline gizz72

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2005, 03:53:42 AM »
Greetings,

I hope they'd find some life out there. We *nearly found one in Mars. Hope to expect one here. Besides, the least traces of it would be fine, but I doubt. :-(

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Offline PMC

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2005, 09:20:54 AM »
I love the description Blob.  I too sort of imagine a world where waxy hydrocarbon slush squishes underfoot and falls from the dark sky...

One wonders what Titan would be like if it were orbiting our own Earth, being that much closer to the sun would it have spawned life of any kind?  The building blocks are there on Titan, but it's way too cold for life to exist there.

I'd bet that Esso would have built it's first moonbase by now.

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2005, 10:16:30 AM »
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I'd bet that Esso would have built it's first moonbase by now.


Hmmm... Diesel powered Space craft? :-D

Offline PMC

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2005, 10:42:41 AM »
Well, jet fuel isn't as combustable as petrol for example.  IIRC some rockets have used Kerosine and even Aluminium powder...  Not sure if they've successfully used diesel though.

O/T - the jet fuel used for the SR-71 spyplane requires very high temperatures in order to combust.  If you were to drop a lit match into a bucket full of SR-71 fuel, the match would be extinguished, and popular legend has it that if you threw the bucket of fuel onto a barbecue, the barbecue would go out too.

Anyway, Titan would have some strange properties.  Because of the overwhealming abundance of hydrocarbons, you could create a reverse bunsen burner by pumping pure oxygen into the atmosphere and combusting it...  

One of Arthur C Clarke's novels describes life on an underground colony on Titan.  I forget what it's called now but the central character travels to Earth to celebrate the 500th anniversary of the Declaration of Independance.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2005, 10:44:25 AM »
Quote

PMC wrote:
I love the description Blob.  I too sort of imagine a world where waxy hydrocarbon slush squishes underfoot and falls from the dark sky...

One wonders what Titan would be like if it were orbiting our own Earth, being that much closer to the sun would it have spawned life of any kind?  The building blocks are there on Titan, but it's way too cold for life to exist there.



Titan would likely not survive such proximity to the sun.

First of all, its gravitational pull* is just enough to hold on to the atmosphere it has at -180C. The RMS speed of the molecules at that temperature is sufficiently low to prevent the gases simply escaping.

Even then, a small fraction of the atmosphere does escape, since statistically you'll always get some molecules moving fast enough and even at Saturn's distance there is still some solar wind scavenging. Luckily for Titan, the gas tends not to escape the gravitational pull of Saturn, producing an equilibrium effect where Titan is able to recapture most of this loss.

If Titan orbited the earth, the increased temperature would push a significant quantity of the atmospheric gases RMS speeds above escape velocity. Even without the solar wind to make the effect worse, the atmosphere would most likely quickly diminish.

*the gravitational pull actually depends largely on this last part...

Lastly, whilst not fully confirmed, the moon seems to be made of a rock-ice mixture that is common for bodies in the outer solar system. If it were heated to terrestrial temperatures, the ice would simply melt. Stripped of it's atmosphere, the water would evaporate pretty quickly leaving you with just the rock content.

OTOH, if Titan turns out to be mostly rock, its mass and subsequent surface gravity will be a lot higher and the above 'worst case' scenario alleviated somewhat.

When the sun begins its helium burning phase, the solar output will increase dramatically. Titan will be warmed up significantly and it will still have the benefit of Saturn's gravitational trap to help keep its atmosphere. After aeons of 'slow chemistry', it could become quite active.
int p; // A
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2005, 10:47:16 AM »
Quote

PMC wrote:
Well, jet fuel isn't as combustable as petrol for example.  IIRC some rockets have used Kerosine and even Aluminium powder...  Not sure if they've successfully used diesel though.
AFAIK, there were plans to build a rocket powered by Aluminium powder, but since solid fuel is hardly managable in a rocket (you know, bits stucking in pumps and nozzles and so) they changed to kerosine/hydrogen
And the canary said: \'chirp\'
 

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2005, 10:57:59 AM »
Actually, aluminium 'dust' is one of the finest grain materials you can make. It would be fairly trivial to suspend in kerosene and behave entirely liquid-like. Still I'd rather not have aluminium oxide pouring out the exhaust of an engine...
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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2005, 10:59:10 AM »
@Speel

I think they use Aluminium powder in the shuttle's solid fuel boosters.

The shuttle is unique in being the only manned space vehicle with solid fuel boosters, all others being liquid fuelled.  As you correctly point out, solid fuel isn't manageable and you can't "throttle back".  In essence you're riding a large firework.

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Offline whabang

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2005, 03:55:32 PM »
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KennyR wrote:
Statistically speaking, that fittest isn't likely to be us when you take the whole galaxy into account. ;-)

No, but some primitive bacteria might be. :-D
Beating the dead horse since 2002.
 

Offline gizz72

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2005, 02:16:14 AM »
Greetings,
Quote

Quote

Quote:

    KennyR wrote:
    Statistically speaking, that fittest isn't likely to be us when you take the whole galaxy into account. ;-)

Quote:

    whabang wrote:
    No, but some primitive bacteria might be. :-D


Care to point *where in the galaxy besides Earth and Mars? :-)

I think, Europa hold the key to life, possibly. http://people.msoe.edu/~tritt/sf/europa.life.html

Regards,

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Offline cecilia

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2005, 02:32:02 AM »
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Well, we DO fit in the galaxy, don't we? :crazy:
Sagan said we were all made of "Star Stuff"

i think that's beautiful!
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Offline gizz72

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Re: Huygens to plunge onto Titan
« Reply #29 from previous page: January 12, 2005, 08:04:57 AM »
Greetings,

Quote

cecilia wrote:
Quote

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Well, we DO fit in the galaxy, don't we? :crazy:
Sagan said we were all made of "Star Stuff"

i think that's beautiful!


@cecilia

I used to watch his documentary 'COSMOS' long ago. I was facinated the way he tells stories about the universe. He was descibing about the acient people, the planets, comets, meteors and spac explorations, If I recall. I just wonder if you have seen all episodes. Too bad it never get to show that here(locally) anymore. Most of the information there were outdated by now, I guess. :-)

Regards,

GiZz72
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