Beginner Programing

[Trooper]

Hi,

I am not a programmer, Although i tried a little way, way back in the spectrum days. You may laugh, But i actually enjoyed it. Copying listings out of magazines and then spending quit a while debugging (if it can be called that) what i had typed.

But, It gave you a sense of achevement when you got the program to work.

I then upgraded to an MGT SAM Coupé, Which had a very simular basic, But slightly more advanced, And made things alot easier.

Anyway, What i am getting at is, The people asking what is the best way to start or get into programming AFAIK are asking you guys your opinions from a beginners point of view. Like, What did you start programming in/with etc. Instead of telling them don`t do this and this is crap etc (I mean that in the nicest possible way). :-)

Anyone with kids will tell you that if you tell them not to do something because its not the done  thing or because it is or looks crap or its dangerous, Are most of the time wasting their breath and they will do it anyway. :-(

All programmers had to start somewhere right, Even if it was with a crap language, But they probably did not know it at the time. Think back, How do you know whether or not your experiences with these so called crap programming languages haven`t benefited you in anyway.

Hope i have not offended anyone.

But please think of it from a beginners point of view, After all, You were one once. ;-)

Regards

Trooper

[Targhan]

@jdiffend

No, our suggestions make plenty of sense.  You have misenterpreted the
topic of discussion.  A person doesn't make a car until they
understand how to have a wheel.  The same concepts apply here.  A
beginner doesn't need to jump off of the deep-end to either swim or
drown.

Besides, REBOL does graphics and there are games done in REBOL. --Even
an Arkanoid clone!


Finally, I said it before and will say it again, and again--the true
beginner needs to start with AmigaDOS scripts.  They've got to learn
what a variable is, what a loop is, and how to use naming conventions
before they should tackle C, C+, Java, or any other of the 'more
difficult' languages.

[jdiffend]

@MarkTime wrote:

p.s. I just saw your own post above where you eschewed GOTO and LINE NUMBERS....so why did you even ask me this question? Just an AmigaBASIC lover?

referring to my post:

If it were an older Basic like I learned on I'd say stay away from it. I don't remember what additional features the Basic compiler we used added, but the code didn't use line numbers, GOTO or other things that teach bad programming practices. We wrote a full accounting package in it. With an editor you can write macros for you can compile wth a single keystroke.

The AmigaBasic code we wrote didn't have a single line number.  It used actual names.  It didn't use GOTO either.  It's not perfectly structured but it isn't as bad as you imply.  I've seen plenty of nasty C code.  And frankly, modern Basics including VisualBasic have, at best, a poor implementation of object oriented programming.  

Let's face it... bad programmers write bad code no matter what language they use.  

If all the guy wants to do is play with mandelbrots (or whatever) on his Amiga who cares what language he starts with and if he uses line numbers or GOTO statements?  The point is, people are making all sorts of suggestions without even asking what he wants to do.  It doesn't do any good to use objects, compilers, IDE's or whatever if he get's so frustrated learning it that he never finishes a single program.

If, after completing a few small programs he's still interested, then he should dive into object oriented programming with Java or C/C++ and learn more structured programming... no argument there!  AmigaBasic will drive him nuts for a large project.

AmigaBasic will let him get his feet wet without the time and effort required just to install a compiler.   But he should definately go to something else as soon as he's ready.

[melott]

Now... ;-)
 Some of you are starting to make sense.
I'm a 63 yrs.old man & retired.
My A3k is one of my hobbies. The PC bores
me. I'm just a hobbiest, I don't think I will
 write anything that will shake the Amiga world
to its roots. If I write something that someone
else can use then thats great, if not thats ok too.
Anything I write only has to satisify me and no one
else. The point I was tring to get across to you is
that there is a great many more hobbiests like me
out there. And face it the hobbiests are what is
keeping the Amiga alive. Just for the hell of it I
did a Google search today on "ATARI ST".  You
know there is an Atari.org out there. What do you
think is keeping that machine alive??? Its certinly
not what most of you are calling the "serious
programer". Its hobbiests.
I started with AmigaBasic because its what i had
and the easiest to understand in the beginning.
I have already moved up to Blitz, and it looks pretty
good. After working with Amigabasic I can now
make sense of Blitz. What started all this I guess
is another thread where some other guy was
asking for help and advice. I know how he felt.
Remember .. without us "hobbiests" the Amiga
really IS dead.
As for me, if my A3k dies I have an A500, and if
that one dies I can fall back to my A1000.
A hobbiest forever......

(IMHO)
Mel Ott
  :-D

[Ilwrath]

@jdiffend -

The AmigaBasic code we wrote didn't have a single line number. It used actual names. It didn't use GOTO either. It's not perfectly structured but it isn't as bad as you imply. I've seen plenty of nasty C code. And frankly, modern Basics including VisualBasic have, at best, a poor implementation of object oriented programming.

Let's face it... bad programmers write bad code no matter what language they use.

Touche' - My early programming was self-taught with a C64.  (Spaghetti, to say the least)  When I got an Amiga, and I used AmigaBasic (for a few months when I first got my 500), my programs looked much more like C64 basic than a higher language.  There's nothing in AmigaBasic to encourage you to use more structured styles.  I didn't really even understand how hideous my early creations were, until I started learning PASCAL and C.  (And then never turned back to look at AmigaBASIC)

If all the guy wants to do is play with mandelbrots (or whatever) on his Amiga who cares what language he starts with and if he uses line numbers or GOTO statements? The point is, people are making all sorts of suggestions without even asking what he wants to do. It doesn't do any good to use objects, compilers, IDE's or whatever if he get's so frustrated learning it that he never finishes a single program.

True, but keep in mind, I was speaking more toward a person who already posted an intention to write a device driver for legacy hardware.  

I was assuming his needs were much more along those lines.  (I probably should have asked if those needs changed.)  

But, I'll agree that BASIC is good for "instant gratification", and for getting over a fear or stigma of programming.  It's novel, it's fun, and it works for small toys and occasionally a quick hack.  As stated, it IS good for a hobbiest language.  Heck, I still enjoy hacking around and generally making a mess of the C64's BASIC V2.  All in all, BASIC is a very enjoyable language, in a rustic sort of way.  (I also like PERL, though, so maybe I'm just sadistic, and like languages that let me make a big mess, if I want to...)

Anyhow, to come full-circle back toward a tad of relevance... If you're posting here looking for advice on how to get started and you're focused on a goal... BASIC most likely would be more of an entertaining detour than a helping start.

[FluffyMcDeath]

Step 1:
Figure out what you want to code.

Step 2:
Find out what the best language is for that.

Step 3:
Learn that language.

If you choose a compiled language, the compiler and environment is something you are going to have to confront some time anyway. No harm leaping in right away.

Starting with AmigaBASIC will get you going and you can familiarize yourself with control structures,

while, do while, for, if else
assignment, algorithm, that sort of thing. Those a concepts that will see you through all the procedural languages. It'll even help a bit for functional languages too, but not so much.

C, C++, PERL, AREXX, BASIC, PASCAL, all procedural.
Scheme, LISP ... functional
REBOL, a bit of both.

As soon as you have the fundamental control structures and such, move on and get into the language you want to know. The sooner you learn the spelling of the language you want, the better.

MOST IMPORTANT,
Try to get in touch with a bunch of people who use the same language, and the same environment, and pick their brains.

[iamaboringperson]

@jdiffend

The AmigaBasic code we wrote didn't have a single line number. It used actual names. It didn't use GOTO either. It's not perfectly structured but it isn't as bad as you imply. I've seen plenty of nasty C code. And frankly, modern Basics including VisualBasic have, at best, a poor implementation of object oriented programming.

line numbers were optional, goto could also be used, and because basic isnt very structured, goto was encouraged

Let's face it... bad programmers write bad code no matter what language they use.

but isnt it easier to write good code with a good structrued or OO language?

But he should definately go to something else as soon as he's ready.

wasting time...

[iamaboringperson]

melott wrote:

Stop moaning and start doing something

IMHO, I think you guys are making a mistake.
You are pushing anyone that wants to do some
programing into using "C". Instead of bullieing
them into a language they don't want to try yet
you should be offer help and incouragement in
in any language they choose. You speak of
learning bad habbits. I don't agree, they learn
different habbits. The structure in basic is not
bad, just different. As an example, you should
not learn the English language as it teachs bad
habbits. Look at most other languages. Their
structure is simular. In Spanish and many others
you say "cosa blanca" or "house white".
So English is bad, we say "white house".
English is not bad, its just different.
I say you should support and help the new
programer in what-ever language he or she
wants to start with.
Amiga needs them to be incorriged, "NOT"
discorriged.

(IMHO)
Mel Ott


 :-)

im not trying to push just the C or C++ languages...
just structured & OOP programming techniques
if you are going to learn a language, you might as well learn one you can use, rather than learn twice, & learn structured or OO programming so that you may be a good programmer in the future

if read alot of people suggesting things like REBOL, AmigaDOS, AmigaBasic, AREXX, and others, as though that will really make your transition into programming easier
NO! learn a usefull programming language NOW! & practice that

[melott]

So.....
 I think the name of AmiBlitz should be
changed to "RODNEY DANGERFIELD".
===It just don't get no respect.===
If there is anyone out there besides me
 interested in AmiBlitz, start another thread
called "RODNEY" and maybe some things can
be discussed without being treated like a
second class citizen.
If nothing .. then I'll SHUT-UP

Mel Ott
  :-D  ;-)