Beginner Programing

[jdiffend]

I know a lot about AmigaBasic.  The problem with AmigaBasic is that it doesn't even run if you have too much memory.  It also does it's share of crashing too.

I used to write libraries for AmigaBasic so that it could do a lot of advanced stuff.  Picture loaders with color cycling, all sorts of sound routines, mod music players... you name it.  The libraries were written in C and assembly.  I *might* still have the docs and examples for the libs somewhere if anyone was actually interested.

If you choose to go with AmigaBasic (which I always thought sucked), try to pick up a copy of  the Absoft Basic compiler (I think that was the one we used).  It worked with most standard code and added some extensions that were nice as you get more advanced.

FWIW, I did some looking around and there is a C interpreter that works like Turbo C.  It's called the Quincy C interpreter.  But it is for the PC.

[star1]

I know C/C++ is bit difficult
things like pointers can drive you nuts but
with practise you can become better at it.

I would suggest that you guys first pick up a good book on C than branch out OOP (c++) or java.

There tons of good books on c/C++ out there.

Be patient, programing takes a lot of time to learn and dont get frustrated....


Also do not start programming on the amiga if start of programing for the first time.

First of all, there not alot of resourses(books) on amiga platform. When you get stuck, it can difficult to find help.

Therefore, go out and buy a book on C first and learn programming on the PC platform. Pc have alot more resourses to help you out. Once
you have learned come back to the amiga, that way you will feel much comfortable.

This link below gives the best free compiler and ide to learn c/c++:

http://www.bloodshed.net/devcpp.html

good luck.


 :-D  :-D  :-D  :-D

[iamaboringperson]

Also do not start programming on the amiga if start of programing for the first time.

DO start programming on the amiga, its not that hard



i see 'beginners programming' as
learning the simple parts of a proper language like C or C++
and continuing on to the harder parts
NOT starting with a crap language, and then when you realise its way to easy, so damn easy that you have been wasting your time, you decide to move to C/C++ wasting yet more time trying to program C in a procedual way
using goto's etc... and making spagetti code
it isnt going to help you

forget this idea that basic is the beginers language, and C is the hard language
C & C++ are easy to start with too!

just start learning and you will find that out

[weirdami]

I started with C=64 BASIC. Why not go with that? Get yourself an old Commodore 64. It's got the BASIC stuff built into the OS. No loading the interpreter or anything. Start programming at the prompt.

[jahc]

ALL YOU NEED TO DO TO START PROGRAMMING IS...

1. Get a C or C++ compiler (try aminet)

2. Go to www.google.com and search for "c tutorial" or "c++ tutorial"

and then after a few days/weeks...

3. get the Amiga Developer CD to learn AmigaOS specific stuff

thats it! stop moaning and start doing something. (I mean that in a nice way).

[melott]

Stop moaning and start doing something

IMHO, I think you guys are making a mistake.
You are pushing anyone that wants to do some
programing into using "C". Instead of bullieing
them into a language they don't want to try yet
you should be offer help and incouragement in
in any language they choose. You speak of
learning bad habbits. I don't agree, they learn
different habbits. The structure in basic is not
bad, just different. As an example, you should
not learn the English language as it teachs bad
habbits. Look at most other languages. Their
structure is simular. In Spanish and many others
you say "cosa blanca" or "house white".
So English is bad, we say "white house".
English is not bad, its just different.
I say you should support and help the new
programer in what-ever language he or she
wants to start with.
Amiga needs them to be incorriged, "NOT"
discorriged.

(IMHO)
Mel Ott


 :-)

[jdiffend]

I (for one) am not trying to push them to C.  Learning C is as much about learning the tools as it is about learning the language.  That makes it tougher on a beginner that may not like programming anyway.

If it were an older Basic like I learned on I'd say stay away from it.  I don't remember what additional features the Basic compiler we used added, but the code didn't use line numbers, GOTO or other things that teach bad programming practices.   We wrote a full accounting package in it.  With an editor you can write macros for you can compile wth a single keystroke.

Learn a little on the interpreter.  Once you start having problems with it's bugs or speed, find the compiler.  It will introduce you to compilers and make your programs run a lot faster.  Once you see the difference you won't want to go back.

I try to get people to start C on the PC because:
1. The tools are excellent and old ones are free.  Turbo C/C++ baby you through the development process... which really helps a beginner.  I know a lot of programmers that can't make heads or tales of make files.  
2. You don't need to learn the Amiga Window and I/O architecture if you write for DOS.  Having to use lots of complex structures before you even know what one is kinda raises the learning curve.
3. Amigas are now old enough they are dieing right and left.  I may have lost most of my Amiga source code thanks to a dead motherboard.  Nothing worse than working on a project for months and then having it wiped out by a hardware failure.

[MarkTime]

I think REBOL fits a lot of requirements for a beginner who owns an Amiga.

It has two books, current, that can be bought.
It has active support.
It runs on Amiga, and other platforms.
There is a user community and lots of help, currently on the web.

AmigaBASIC is all but forgotten, but on the other hand, if you really find it neat to learn...then that motivating factor may help you learn it the quickest.

Some programming concepts are universal, but you will learn a lot of bad habits in a language like AmigaBASIC, but nothing that cannot be relearned if it inspires a love for programming.

I'd say go for it, since you aren't going to listen to me anyway!
 :-D

[Lo]

@ jdiffend

 I agree with you as I never got past basic/rexx very much.

>3. Amigas are now old enough they are dieing >right and left. I may have lost most of my Amiga >source code thanks to a dead motherboard. >Nothing worse than working on a project for >months and then having it wiped out by a >hardware failure.

Aw rats! You couldn't save the HD?

You probably won't like this, but learning to program on the Amiga will be harder than for a more widely supported platform. If you want to persevere and battle on with the Amiga, other people have made some good suggestions. However, if you want to learn how to program in general, rather than specifically for the Amiga, I suggest you get a cheap Linux box, and install python on it. There are a million python tutorials, tons of books and how-tos, lots of mailing lists, forums, newsgroups, and thousands of helpful programmers.

You might think that learning Linux as well as programming only makes thing harder, but Linux really is trivially easy compared to any kind of coding, even Python coding! It's supremely developer-friendly, regardless of what people think of its user-friendliness.

HTH

[Targhan]

@MarkTime:  I agree about Rebol for learning to program with.

However, I still stand by my earlier statement that a user looking to
program on the Amiga must start with using AmigaDOS scripts.  There
are several good reasons to start with AmigaDOS scripts.

1. It's really easy.

2. AmigaDOS scripts still gives one access to standard features of
AmigaDOS (Ex. RequestChoice)

3. Learning AmigaDOS scripting helps the aspiring programmer to really
learn where files go, and how the basic system works.  Don't
underestimate the value of knowing AmigaDOS scripting--particularly
when there is a Startup-Sequence and User-Startup to deal with ;-)

Other than AmigaDOS being the bottom line, I agree about REBOL.  It's
incredibly easy, powerful, and cross platform.  It's not like Java,
which even SUN can't keep things standard between versions--let alone
across platforms.  REBOL, as a language, is great for beginners.

[hagar]

Some people says that beginners should start with
scheme. Some universities teach scheme in their programming introduction courses.
Unfortunately I havn't tested scheme  so I can only tell you what I have heard from other people.

However I there is one thing I know...
Stay away from Haskell untill you're into programming.
Haskell will drive any beginner nuts.

[jdiffend]

Look, a lot of you are making suggestions that don't make much sense.

1.  What does the person want to do with it?  If they want to write a game or do some cool graphics scripting languages and Rebol don't make any sense.  Frankly, they don't make much sense most of the time anyway.

2. Are they considering a career as a programmer and trying to figure out if they like it?  C/C++ and Java are what they will use the most.  Knowing Unix, Perl and Unix shell scripting are next in line on the need to know list.  Most of the applications I've written in the last 5 years were web based.  That means HTML, DHTML, Javascript, etc...

3. I honestly think programming for the Amiga can be fun but if you ever want to make a career of it... think PC.

As for learning bad habits by using AmigaBasic... WHY?  The stuff we used to write looked more like Pascal than Basic.  You obviously haven't seen a lot of AmigaBasic.

Aw rats! You couldn't save the HD?

My 3000's hard drive interface started flaking out and now the hard drive won't validate... come to think of it I don't think it even appears to be formatted at all according to the computer.

*IF* I transferred the source to the 1200 I purchased then I'm ok... but at the moment I don't have a monitor that even works with that.

It's no big deal really.  Just bumbs me out to lose all that code.  I had a lot of routines in assembly for picture fades, color cycling, decompressing ILBM images... all designed to link to SAS C.  It could be directly linked with from C or accessed from Basic through a shared library.

 I also had a 64180 emulator, some custom speach stuff that sounded much better than the narrator device... all sorts of toys I was working on at one time.

Actually, I don't care as much about that as some personal stuff that's probably gone forever.

[MarkTime]

@jdiffend

I've seen AmigaBASIC....and I know that very very early versions of pascal had some similar limitations, but that is not the point.

AmigaBASIC is old.  It doesn't resemble modern pascal in any way, and it doesn't even resemble modern object oriented BASICs very much either.

Here is the problem, LINE NUMBERS and GOTO statements.

This is 'unstructured' programming.  You can try very hard to stay structured in AmigaBASIC, but unlike other languages, it doesn't force it on you.  Indeed, if you try to stay structured....the language is so limited it actually encourages you to take every trick and shortcut in the book, trying to get around its limitations.

I programmed in those languages, and even earlier languages...I know how fun it was to find a new trick...but our programming was a huge mess, and its nothing like modern programming.

Even the code I see beginners post on this very site...in AmigaBASIC, it always reminds me of the old days, and not of modern structured code.....

(EDIT)

p.s. I just saw your own post above where you eschewed GOTO and LINE NUMBERS....so why did you even ask me this question?  Just an AmigaBASIC lover?

[artman]

Been reading these  threads for awhile, I'm not a coder in then least, maybe what Mell Ott is saying is what prcocess's do I need to follow to program?  Maybe I know the commands of basic, how do I apply them?  Knowing the words of a language does'nt mean I know how to speak it!  How do I figure out how to make sense of it all?
 :-?

[Trooper]

Hi,

I am not a programmer, Although i tried a little way, way back in the spectrum days. You may laugh, But i actually enjoyed it. Copying listings out of magazines and then spending quit a while debugging (if it can be called that) what i had typed.

But, It gave you a sense of achevement when you got the program to work.

I then upgraded to an MGT SAM Coupé, Which had a very simular basic, But slightly more advanced, And made things alot easier.

Anyway, What i am getting at is, The people asking what is the best way to start or get into programming AFAIK are asking you guys your opinions from a beginners point of view. Like, What did you start programming in/with etc. Instead of telling them don`t do this and this is crap etc (I mean that in the nicest possible way). :-)

Anyone with kids will tell you that if you tell them not to do something because its not the done  thing or because it is or looks crap or its dangerous, Are most of the time wasting their breath and they will do it anyway. :-(

All programmers had to start somewhere right, Even if it was with a crap language, But they probably did not know it at the time. Think back, How do you know whether or not your experiences with these so called crap programming languages haven`t benefited you in anyway.

Hope i have not offended anyone.

But please think of it from a beginners point of view, After all, You were one once. ;-)

Regards

Trooper