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Offline CrusherTopic starter

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Remake Amiga chips?
« on: December 24, 2004, 01:14:47 AM »
How hard is it today to remake Amiga chips like Ramsey, Super Buster and so on.
I mean these chips ain´t new and soon they will break down and no spare to get.  :-)
Mainframe: Amiga 3000 Tower, CSPPC233/060, 144+2MB, 36GB UW, Prometheus, Voodoo5 5500, 10Mbit, 24xCDr, OS 4.0 ....Amiga since 1987.
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2004, 01:19:02 AM »
The technology's probably pretty basic by modern standards,
but I've read that the plans for the original chips have been
lost and that there aren't many (if any) facilities left that
can manufacture these kinds of chips.

Whether or not that is true, is another matter.

Can anyone else clarify?
 

Offline SHADES

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2004, 03:01:24 AM »
I do beleive Dave Haynie had the only copies available of chip design and layout.
I also believe he has the only working AAA prototype AMIGA.
Lucky bloke, very tallented too I must say.
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Offline Argo

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2004, 03:07:45 AM »
Hmm, Maybe he could do similar to Jeri Elsworth. Amiga on a Chip or Custom Chips on a Chip. I'm sure someone would buy an Amiga joystick.
 

Offline BigBenAussie

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2004, 06:43:50 AM »
Ummm...That same old question again...

Only for some reason, this time it seems more plausable.

Did they combine chips when they built the CD32 to make it so small?

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.
 

Offline keropi

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2004, 08:29:48 AM »
Can u imagine, someone making an amiga 1200/4000 that could fit on those small factor cubic pc cases (like the msi/shuttle ones)... I would really love a 1200/4000 on this kind of case... with pci bus ofcource! wow...  :-D
 

Offline pjhutch

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2004, 09:09:01 AM »
Cost, technology and size of market are the main blocks to doing this.

First, the technology has moved so much that very few people have the chip making facilities to make exact matching chips. If they tried it with today's technology the timing and compatibility would probably stop it from working on 10 yr old machines anyway.

Cost, the cost is enormous to set up, design and start production and you need a good size run of chips to make to make it worthwhile and to be honest, the size of the market is so small, that no company would invest in that sort of money unless they can guarantee a high return (which I'm afraid is impossible).

The only way forward to to forget the classic Amiga and concentrate on the A1 and AmigaOs 4. It needs developers, it needs software and it needs users to succeed....
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2004, 09:35:19 AM »
Looking at the problem from an electronical PoV, would it be possible to simulate the chips using FGPAs? That C-one thingie seems to be capable of emulating quite a lot. I doubt it has the oompf you need to emulate an Amiga, but still. Mind, I'm not saying anyone should, I'm just wondering, are those chips fast enough to pull it off?
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Offline CrusherTopic starter

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2004, 11:24:04 AM »
pjhutch, I can see your point but I´m not interrested in forgetting my old Amiga. That´s like saying to a owner of a classic Porsche to get rid of it and buy a new one. So you´re talking to deaf ears  :-P

Imagine this then, there are people that make new acceleratorcards (like Oli, nice fellow) so why would it be so hard to make new customchips, maybe not exactly the same in shape but ones that fit into the sockets and maybe are slightly faster. I mean, if you install an acceleratorcard then everything is going faster but the motherboard is still going in 27MHz (or whatever it is) so why not making faster customchips?

The really first chips weren´t made in machines, they were made in a garage (although they were very big), so the need of a factory isn´t necessary.

Oh. Merry christmas and a Happy new year.  :-)
Mainframe: Amiga 3000 Tower, CSPPC233/060, 144+2MB, 36GB UW, Prometheus, Voodoo5 5500, 10Mbit, 24xCDr, OS 4.0 ....Amiga since 1987.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2004, 11:42:22 AM »
Quote

Crusher wrote:
Imagine this then, there are people that make new acceleratorcards (like Oli, nice fellow) so why would it be so hard to make new customchips, maybe not exactly the same in shape but ones that fit into the sockets and maybe are slightly faster. I mean, if you install an acceleratorcard then everything is going faster but the motherboard is still going in 27MHz (or whatever it is) so why not making faster customchips?


An FPGA could easily be programmed to emulate the Original custom chip tech, but as PHutch pointed out, electrically it would be unlikely to work in a real Amiga. If you make the chips faster then they won't work, the whole system needs to be designed around specific specs. Also, to interface modern chips (with modern Voltage and current requirements, not to mention skew and other weird timing issues) with decade old technology would be very expensive.

It's time to forget the old systems and move on :-(

Offline Cymric

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2004, 11:47:47 AM »
Quote
Crusher wrote:
I mean, if you install an acceleratorcard then everything is going faster but the motherboard is still going in 27MHz (or whatever it is) so why not making faster customchips? The really first chips weren´t made in machines, they were made in a garage (although they were very big), so the need of a factory isn´t necessary.

Your knowledge of chip manufacture is not good. Making chips is difficult and expensive. Making chips with a technology nobody uses anymore even more so. It is not a question of soldering a few bits and pieces together, you know! In other words: it would still be possible, but the price would be hideously prohibitive, even for enthusiasts like yourself. How much would you be willing to spend on your faster custom chips? $100? $1000? $10000?

And then your troubles are just beginning. There is the problem of signal integrity on the motherboard of your old Amiga. Is it capable of sustaining speeds of up to, say, 50 or 75 MHz? Another problem is that once you tamper with the clock frequency, you tamper with the display and the OS timings too. How do you handle scanline frequencies? The Copper has to work in sync with the monitor, otherwise you end up with complete chaos. You must hack and modify the ROM to change its idea of time. Is your ChipRAM fast enough?

In other words: forget it. It will never happen. Period. If you want to be a happy classic Amiga user for many years to come, you unplug it, put it in a protective case, seal the diskdrives, park the hard disk, and only use it on your birthday. For the rest, you use WinUAE, AROS, a Pegasos II, or an Amiga One.

That is why the only viable option today---that is, if you want a new Amiga in hardware---is to use FPGAs which can be programmed on the fly, and those require a totally different electrical infrastructure to what you have in your old Amiga.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2004, 11:59:05 AM »
Quote
In other words: forget it. It will never happen. Period. If you want to be a happy classic Amiga user for many years to come, you unplug it, put it in a protective case, seal the diskdrives, park the hard disk, and only use it on your birthday. For the rest, you use WinUAE, AROS, a Pegasos II, or an Amiga One


That's the best advice you're going to get when it comes to BixBox Amiga's... for the Low end machines, just buy up a buch of them cheap and kill them one by one.

Offline Doobrey

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2004, 03:50:39 PM »
Quote

BigBenAussie wrote:
Did they combine chips when they built the CD32 to make it so small?


Yup..
 Off the top of my head, the 2 CIAs,Gayle and Budgie were integrated into the Akiko chip.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2004, 05:32:46 PM »
Quote

Doobrey wrote:
Quote

BigBenAussie wrote:
Did they combine chips when they built the CD32 to make it so small?


Yup..
 Off the top of my head, the 2 CIAs,Gayle and Budgie were integrated into the Akiko chip.


:-o You're right, I'd never noticed it before, the CD32 has no CIAs!!!!!

Offline CrusherTopic starter

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Re: Remake Amiga chips?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2004, 06:31:25 PM »
Hmm.. (please don´t misunderstand me)
The only thing your attitude is doing ("move on..." and "Forget the old ones...") is just resulting in the opposite. People who tell me that is not possible and so on, just convinces me more that it can be done. Yes, you are right I don´t know much of this but I know that if it has been built, if I can imagine it then it can be built(again). I´m just going to look further, so thank you for giving me inspiration too bad you couldn´t help me.  :-)
Mainframe: Amiga 3000 Tower, CSPPC233/060, 144+2MB, 36GB UW, Prometheus, Voodoo5 5500, 10Mbit, 24xCDr, OS 4.0 ....Amiga since 1987.