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Author Topic: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips  (Read 20822 times)

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Offline hagar

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #74 from previous page: February 19, 2003, 08:28:30 PM »
I think this is good.

If I'm going to buy an AmigaOne, I will not buy one of those
very expensive graphic cards. If it is possible for me to run OS4 with any of the old cards I got at home, thats even better.

(But then I save money for the 21th World Scout Moot in Taiwan 2004, so I doubt I will spend _any_ money on anything amiga related during the next 12 months),
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Offline Hammer

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #75 on: February 19, 2003, 09:22:53 PM »
Quote

Well the probably biggest problem however is that
most of the gfx card drivers of SNAP for advanced
cards are probably based on object files
provided by the card manufactures and these are
only available for x86 and not ppc.

Refer to http://www.scitechsoft.com/docs/snap_ga/notoc/index.html

"SciTech SNAP drivers are source code portable between different microprocessor platforms, and the binary drivers are operating system portable within a particular microprocessor family. Hence the Intel x86 drivers can work on any 386+ CPU with any 32-bit operating system or environment supported on that CPU."
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Offline Hammer

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #76 on: February 19, 2003, 09:33:15 PM »
Quote

ksk wrote:
G4 toasting the P4 :-o  ... 180 GFX chip drivers for AOS4 :-o  :-o  ...

That’s a bit of a generalization.

http://www.barefeats.com/p4game.html
http://www.barefeats.com/pentium4.html

(Just for reference between Pentium 4 3Ghz HT vs Athlon XP 2700+/nForce2)http://www17.tomshardware.com/graphic/20021218/vgacharts-05.html  
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Offline Hammer

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #77 on: February 19, 2003, 09:49:47 PM »
Quote

You read that right, 2D. SNAP's vast majority of support is for 10+ year old VGA, EGA and CGA chip solution!
 

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Offline Crumb

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #78 on: February 19, 2003, 10:14:31 PM »
@downix:
"Which would get done sooner, 3D support for 4 variations on a chip design, or 3D support for 60+ variations on 20+ chip designs?"

The point is that OS4 will have 3D support for Voodoo3, Permedia2 and later Radeon and Permedia 3 AND lots of 2D drivers for people not interested in 3D.

"My money is on MorphOS having complete 3D support for their 2D-only-for-now 3D cards than AOS4. "

You seem to forget that all Amiga games that use 3D acceleration use 3D drivers written by the Hyperion crew. They already have the drivers for permedia2 and voodoo3, they will have 3D support for Radeon and Permedia3 (and maybe Matrox, who knows...). But they also will have an excelent 2D support for lots of cards (and it's not like if they had to do these drivers from scratch, these drivers are well tested and optimized for 2D).

You can invest your money where you want, but it's obvious that having full 2D support for lots of cards it's better than not having support at all.
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Offline downix

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #79 on: February 19, 2003, 10:22:56 PM »
@Crumb

Not saying that having support is bad, but that I am sick of people going "oooooo, 180+ chips, must be great."  It's not great, as AOS4 will never see a good portion of them.  Also, too many people don't read the fine lines, nor do their research into the supported chipsets.  My negativity is more a response to them than a FUD against SNAP.  I happen to use SNAP in my OS/2 partition and find it very nice (better than the 16-bit OS/2 drivers for my Voodoo).  But I also know the kind of support issues that it can and will bring to AOS4 and I do not envy Hyperion's position.

But this also brings up the second issue of AOS4 I don't like, inconsistancy.  Which API will coders have to use, P96 or SNAP?
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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #80 on: February 19, 2003, 10:52:36 PM »
I don't think that the feeling is wowww!! , we will have support for 180 video cards.

The feeling is wow!! , we have support for some of the best cards.

Which is more than some folks will probably have.
 

Offline Skyraker

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #81 on: February 19, 2003, 11:29:15 PM »
@downix

Ok, some of the younger crowd on here might sound like theyre at a fireworks display (ooh aaah wow etc), nevertheless this is a very useful development....

... but only you could take a positive piece of news and sodomize it.

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Offline Kay

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #82 on: February 19, 2003, 11:39:45 PM »
@downix:

Seing how hard you are trying to make this sound like bad news, I can only assume that OS4 just gained a massive advantage over MorphOS. Why else would Thendic be working so hard at FUDing it down? Anyway, your desperate straw-grasping is getting rather tiresome, and I'd appreciate if you'd just knock it off.

Kay
 

Offline SlimJim

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #83 on: February 19, 2003, 11:48:10 PM »
Yes, sorry to say it Downix. Even if you were eventually
to be right in all you doom mongering comments, you are
currently coming across as more and more desperate.
 
...Which I suppose was not your intention. Might I suggest a
change of tactics?
 
...Oh, and as for the API:s, there will only be one, the
Picasso96, in which SNAP will just appear as yet another
driver (as I understood it). Read the interview with Ben Hermans on amiga.de.
.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #84 on: February 20, 2003, 03:18:09 AM »
Quote

Not saying that having support is bad, but that I am sick of people going "oooooo, 180+ chips, must be great."

What’s the other alternative?  

Quote

 It's not great, as AOS4 will never see a good portion of them. Also, too many people don't read the fine lines, nor do their research into the supported chipsets.

What kind of research are you referring to?

Quote

I happen to use SNAP in my OS/2 partition and find it very nice (better than the 16-bit OS/2 drivers for my Voodoo).
 

Good for you...

Quote

But this also brings up the second issue of AOS4 I don't like, inconsistancy. Which API will coders have to use, P96 or SNAP?
 

Asserting "inconsistency" would be subjective since you haven't seen the whole picture.

Refer to http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2003-02-00202-EN.html

Also refer to http://www.scitechsoft.com/docs/snap_ga/notoc/index.html

"SciTech SNAP drivers are source code portable between different microprocessor platforms, and the binary drivers are operating system portable within a particular microprocessor family. Hence the Intel x86 drivers can work on any 386+ CPU with any 32-bit operating system or environment supported on that CPU."

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Offline itix

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #85 on: February 20, 2003, 03:45:17 PM »
Quote

Kay wrote:

Seing how hard you are trying to make this sound like bad news, I can only assume that OS4 just gained a massive advantage over MorphOS.


Only implemented feature counts. OS4 can support more than 1.000.000 gfx chipsets but now OS4 supports only one or two. This deal looks good but the job must be done first.
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Offline Methuselas

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #86 on: February 20, 2003, 05:16:52 PM »
Man, I can't believe some of you people! What the hell is wrong with you? Hyperion strikes up a partnership with a graphics card driver designer and you've gotta bitch. I think some of you owe the people of Hyperion an apology.

First off, SciTech supports 180 graphics cards. Then you start bitching, 'but it only supports 2D'. Big deal! Most of the old Amiga games ARE 2D, along with MOST of it's software. We don't need hardcore 3D drivers right now, 'cos we don't have ANYTHING that an USE them! Hyperion isn't going to use all 180, but at least they know they can PICK from that the best, say 20 or 30 gfx cards and have those ported for use with the Amiga OS. Then, there are others that whine, 'But I bet there's no 3D drivers on release.' Blah blah. Well, now Rogue and the rest of the other coders have hardware DOCUMENTS on chipsets that were once unavailable, ie NVIDIA! It's quite simple, SciTech ports their drivers, handpicked by Hyperion I'm sure and Hyperion does what it does best, codes for Amiga. Besides, of the current 3D drivers or GAMES, for that matter, for Amiga out, which ones WEREN'T written by Hyperion? Very few.

I think it's a good move. They're the LAST chance you have at an 'official' AmigaOS upgrade since Commodore, yet you all have to find SOMETHING wrong with it. Sure, they've picked up extra work, but look at it. They've just helped make you a BETTER product *AND* picked up however many coders there are at SciTech assigned to the porting of their drivers to help do their job.

Believe me, you will bitch if you find something wrong with OS4. Hyperion knows it. If they say anything, it's taken out of context or picked apart, like vultures on carrion. Yet, they throw out this bit of information and the first thing you do is complain.  

'It's gonna take YEARS to develop..'

'Some of these chipsets are 10+ years old...'

'We don't need this many....'

'It's not as good as ECS, OCS, or AGA....'

What the hell is wrong with you???!? Don't you realize that Hyperion actually CARES about you as a community, 'cos they are a part of it and want nothing more than to see Amiga continue and thrive?? They're prepared to pull every ounce of power they can find in the AmigaOS and give it to you in a finished and *FINAL* product. I am a perfectionist when it comes to drawing. I understand them completely.  If they 'let you down', you will destroy them.
 :-(

I am totally pissed about the coupon thing. I didn't buy one, but it's sh!tty the way you people have been done. Hyperion didn't do that to you. That was Amiga Inc. Let them dabble with their PDA projects. Hyperion is following their original promise. To have a fully cross platformable OS. Sure, right now it's only PPC, but it's coded for two of them and I'm sure it wouldn't take much to have that ported, other than time, coders and resources. Have faith in these people. The people at Hyperion and Eyetch, they WANTED a PPC AmigaOS, so they WORKED for it. They spent time, designing it, implementing it, not to mention their own resources to bring products like the AmigaOne to you. Sure, it's not using up to date hardware, but aren't most of you using 10+ year old amigas anways? I think running most of the stuff I do on an A3000, but on a NEW mobo that's behind the times by, say a couple of years, is alot better.

I guess none of you noticed Hans-Jorg and Thomas take offence to your bitching about how....'ignorant' seems to be the only word I can think of right now.....they and the rest of Hyperion were for trying to build you a better Amiga.  I'm suprised they even bother to tell us anything anymore.  :-?  

I, for one, am sorry on how the community has acted. Rogue, you and the rest of Hyperion have my most humble apology. Good work. If it's been delayed, I'm not suprised. I have always intended to wait until it was in beta release before looking into buying it, but I never questioned the integrity or the lack of commitment you had to this project. Maybe someday soon I'll FINALLY have an Amiga that will be able to run your games.    :-D  Here's to hoping.

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Offline Rogue

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #87 on: February 20, 2003, 05:28:37 PM »
Quote
whatever work these SciTech guys have done so far will have to be adapted to A1/AOS4 as drivers have to have a lot of per-system optimisations


Didn't it occur to you that the system-adaption part is very easy? That this might be one of the actual selling points for SNAP. Again, what part of "OS-agnostic" is so hard to comprehend?

Quote
it doesn't mean that AmigaOS4 instantly has driver support for all the cards that SciTech have done work for.


Any sort of reasoning to back this up, or do you admit at making a wild guess? You don't know very much about SNAP, or do you?

Quote
what if their work on some of the graphics chipsets out of this "170" quoted number were guarded with confidentiality agreements of sorts, that they weren't allowed to use the work for other projects/companies


What if their work doesn't, and is completely their own? What if I never need to actually see the driver source code?
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Offline Rogue

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #88 on: February 20, 2003, 05:34:37 PM »
Quote
its just more 'talk' and we've seen 'talk' for years now.


Sorry, mips_proc, as I said before blame whoever you want for "years". Blame us for one "year". Talking isn't a bad thing at all if work is being done in parallel, and there *is* work being done, much more than ever before.
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Offline Rogue

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Re: AmigaOS 4.x to support about 180 Graphics card chips
« Reply #89 on: February 20, 2003, 05:46:13 PM »
Quote
But this also brings up the second issue of AOS4 I don't like, inconsistancy. Which API will coders have to use, P96 or SNAP?  


If you have a look at the SNAP sdk, you will find out that this is no API for high-level graphics. As its name implies, it is a driver system, and as such it is not intended to be used directly, in the same sense as SCSI device is not used to read files from disk.

SNAP will be integrated as a monitor driver under Picasso96. The original graphics library and the Picasso96 API will be used, like before. Plans are to extend the graphics system starting at 4.1, and eventually replace it and provide an interface for backwards compatibility.

There is nothing inconsistant about this. You where just jumping to conclusions.

I agree that many of the 180 graphics chips supported will probably never be used in an AmigaOne (TSENG ET4000 anyone), but that is actually not the point. The point is, *if* you want to buy a graphics card, or happen to have one in your hand, chances are that you will find it mentioned on a 180 entry list, as opposed to a list of only 5 or so cards.

Also, no one ever claimed that these will be supported with 3D drivers (again the ET 4000 doesn't even have a 3D core). However, the same problem would arise if we or Alexander and Tobias would need to write the 2D drivers, only that we would also be burdened with that one. And, as the press release also states, we are cooperating with SciTech on this, so anything done on their part also benefits OS 4 customers.
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