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Author Topic: Amiga Poser......  (Read 3112 times)

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Offline CU_AMiGATopic starter

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Amiga Poser......
« on: November 27, 2004, 03:01:13 PM »
Hello,

Okay. Firstly my configuration. Amiga 1200, B1260, 64meg RAM, AGA. Right, here is the funny part:

My Workbench screen is set to 256 colours (maximum on AGA)
On MacOS (using Shapeshifter emulation) the desktop screen is working in 15-bit colour mode!

Can you guess how am i doing this!?!?! :lol:

Regards,
A1200D / AGA / B1260 / 64MB RAM / KS 3.1 / AOS 3.9 / 4GB HD
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2004, 03:09:57 PM »
Dithering?

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2004, 03:38:13 PM »
Doesn't AOS 3.9 support a function that converts truecolor images to HAM8?
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2004, 03:54:30 PM »
Quote

CU_AMiGA wrote:
Hello,

My Workbench screen is set to 256 colours (maximum on AGA)
On MacOS (using Shapeshifter emulation) the desktop screen is working in 15-bit colour mode!

Can you guess how am i doing this!?!?! :lol:



You are using a Chunky TrueColour -> HAM8 video driver thingy for it? There were several written, I tried a few myself (before getting a video card). It might have been one of the "savage" ones, come to think of it.

At the time I can remember this giving me an idea that one could create a genuine AGA driver for P96 / CGX that allows an application to work with chunky RGB graphics in fast ram and then use the same sort of trickery to render it down to AGA HAM8 for displayable bitmaps.

On the plus side you'd get a reasonable emulation of 15/16-bit RGB and a passable 24-bit emulation. On the minus side, youd get no blitter acceleration of any kind, but on 040/060 that's a moot point since they could move fast ram data around much faster than the blitter could shift chip ram data anyway ;-)

Beats me that nobody seems to have tried this.
int p; // A
 

Offline Matt_H

Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2004, 04:04:02 PM »
There was an AGA driver for ancient versions of CGX (v2, I think). I don't know if it had the capabilities you just described, but it's strange that it wasn't developed further. Could have sold a lot more copies.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2004, 04:05:25 PM »
Quote
On the plus side you'd get a reasonable emulation of 15/16-bit RGB and a passable 24-bit emulation. On the minus side, youd get no blitter acceleration of any kind, but on 040/060 that's a moot point since they could move fast ram data around much faster than the blitter could shift chip ram data anyway

Beats me that nobody seems to have tried this.



Your biggest hurdle would be having an 8bit buffer in chip ram (which would use up just about all the available bandwidth)... and then use up all your CPU time doing a 24bit->HAM8 conversion...
At the end of the day you may as well have a workbench slide show :lol: I'd be really surprised if you could get 50fps out of it... I was really disappointed with the performance of my 040

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2004, 04:08:22 PM »
Quote

Matt_H wrote:
There was an AGA driver for ancient versions of CGX (v2, I think). I don't know if it had the capabilities you just described, but it's strange that it wasn't developed further. Could have sold a lot more copies.


CGX-AGA came with V3 (as bundled with OS3.5 also, IIRC). It was part of CGX-PPC (the irony of which was that it had no PPC code of any kind in it, rather it was soley a patch to make sure that bitmap data was allocated in a PPC cache friendly way).

I used it some time before getting a video card. It had several useful benefits and in many respects behaved similarly to the FBlit patch, using fast ram for offscreen stuff etc.

It supported a maximum depth of 256 colours and was really only a basic thing to get some CGX software that ran in 256 colours to work on AGA systems. There was certianly no RGB emulation available.
int p; // A
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2004, 04:10:40 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Your biggest hurdle would be having an 8bit buffer in chip ram (which would use up just about all the available bandwidth)... and then use up all your CPU time doing a 24bit->HAM8 conversion...
At the end of the day you may as well have a workbench slide show :lol: I'd be really surprised if you could get 50fps out of it... I was really disappointed with the performance of my 040


You must not have read the part where I said I'd used a RGB->HAM8 video driver for shapeshifter ;-)

There were various tricks used. You sure as hell don't convert the full frame, every frame, just the areas that are affected when someone renders something ;-)

-edit-

Of course, if it were available, one could use the PPC to do the conversion. 2 context switches per frame are hardly likely to compare to the time it takes to actually do the job of converting the data, right?
int p; // A
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2004, 04:21:47 PM »
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Your biggest hurdle would be having an 8bit buffer in chip ram (which would use up just about all the available bandwidth)... and then use up all your CPU time doing a 24bit->HAM8 conversion...
At the end of the day you may as well have a workbench slide show :lol: I'd be really surprised if you could get 50fps out of it... I was really disappointed with the performance of my 040


You must not have read the part where I said I'd used a RGB->HAM8 video driver for shapeshifter ;-)

There were various tricks used. You sure as hell don't convert the full frame, every frame, just the areas that are affected when someone renders something ;-)



Ahhhhhhhhh... you mean using the MMU to detect the "damaged" areas of the display... yeah that would make the whole idea much more feasable :-D

Quote

-edit-

Of course, if it were available, one could use the PPC to do the conversion. 2 context switches per frame are hardly likely to compare to the time it takes to actually do the job of converting the data, right?


Hell yeah... I imagine with the PPC, Copying the display updates to the Chipram would probably be 95% of the total overhead of the whole process :-D

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2004, 04:37:42 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:

Hell yeah... I imagine with the PPC, Copying the display updates to the Chipram would probably be 95% of the total overhead of the whole process :-D


Actually, one interesting thing I have noticed in my various bus battering experiments is that the PPC actually has considerably slower write access to Chip RAM than the 680x0 does.

For me, the ideal scenario would be:

1) Chunky RGB buffer in fastram, all rendering calls work on this. Possibly use MMU to determine the damage area. Very small changes could be "accumulated" until either a worthwile amount of required conversion is reached or a time threshold has elapsed.

2) Conversion of RGB -> HAM8 planar data in fast ram. This could be PPC accelerated where available - but only on areas that are above a certian size (as determined by the context switch time) - for small areas the context switch time could dominate, but above a certian area the PPC would rapidly overtake the 680x0 in performance terms. This should be a user preference tweak.

3) Copy converted data to CHIP ram, again if MMU was used originally, copy only the changed area. This could be done on 680x0 or PPC or even directly as part of step (2). However, it seems writing to chip ram is considerably slower on all the PPC's than for 68040/68060, so the 680x0 might make more sense.

int p; // A
 

Offline leirbag28

Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2004, 04:56:59 PM »
@CU_AMIGA

Well how about you tell us Buddy Boy?

I am dying to get MacOS running on my AGA Amiga
CD32 is actually the best Amiga ever made by Commodore!...
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2004, 07:21:34 PM »
Quote

leirbag28 wrote:
@CU_AMIGA

Well how about you tell us Buddy Boy?

I am dying to get MacOS running on my AGA Amiga


As already stated, get an external video driver for shapeshifter (there are loads on aminet) if you want resonable colour mac emulation.

Failing that, ask Redrumloa about the graffiti cards he has in stock - shapeshifter apparently has support for these as well.
int p; // A
 

Offline CU_AMiGATopic starter

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2004, 08:47:12 PM »
Hello

Yes Karlos is right (DAMN!). It is a Shapeshifter external driver, that uses HAM8 and MMU. This particular driver is MUEVD

MUEVD
Description

Can this CGFX v3 (AGA PPC) be made to run on 060 AGA then?

Regards,
A1200D / AGA / B1260 / 64MB RAM / KS 3.1 / AOS 3.9 / 4GB HD
 

Offline odin

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2004, 01:31:50 AM »
Isn't that dogslow :-?.

Offline Karlos

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Re: Amiga Poser......
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2004, 01:56:38 AM »
It ran fairly OK on my machine as I recall. Not too fast, however.

I do seem to recall a PPC external video driver (could have been the savage one) that was quite fast. Not sure if it did 16 bit in hindsight, it all became academic once I shoved the bvision in there...
int p; // A