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Author Topic: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?  (Read 8950 times)

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Offline Framiga

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2004, 06:04:49 PM »
Quote
by Mr_Capehill on 2004/11/20 14:01:14

Not again this.

1) Hyperion doesn't have a license for that.

2) Decision what hardware will get supported.

3) Probably a lot worse piracy problem.

I hope that you know Hyperion is working on AOS4 with very low budget. To support dozens of hardware options in x86 world would be...impossible?

THANKS Mr_Capehill . . .thanks a LOT :-)

i couldn't agree more

 

Offline Kronos

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2004, 07:27:48 PM »
>1) Hyperion doesn't have a license for that.

Which is probraly only so because they never asked for one.

>2) Decision what hardware will get supported.

You just pick one completly outdated Mobo and sell it at an extreme price .... oh wait, I got that one wrong ....

Amithlon prooved that one can support a great portion of x86 without major hassle.

>3) Probably a lot worse piracy problem.

Ah, so selling 1 copy is better than selling 2 copies + 5 pirate-copies ?
It was claimed that Amithlon sold ~2700 times in the short time it was on sale, thats about 3 times more than OS4 sofar. And inspite of being fudded and demonized by self-proclaimed "savers of the community"

Just imagine how many copies could have been sold if all forces had gathered behind, how many users and developers wouldn't have left....

And for the piracy, there are allways dongles, just as safe, but less painfull than restricting ourself to one line of medicore (you wish) mobos.

>I hope that you know Hyperion is working on AOS4 with very low budget.
Duh, they knew that when they started, and they should have thought of the consequnces instead of forcing another severe shift/split onto the community.

> To support dozens of hardware options in x86 world would be...impossible?
Did I allready mention Amithlon ?
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

Offline Framiga

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2004, 07:39:17 PM »

:-(

aahhaaah!! sorry . .  .bored . . .

 

Offline BigBenAussie

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2004, 07:46:28 PM »
Quote
>I hope that you know Hyperion is working on AOS4 with very low budget.
Duh, they knew that when they started, and they should have thought of the consequnces instead of forcing another severe shift/split onto the community.


I remember that Garry Hare(CEO of KMOS) mentioned that Hyperion have not asked for more money to support development. Its pure speculation, but I wonder if Hyperion has not asked for more money because KMOS would have tried to water down their agreement somehow, cutting them out of some potential profit on sales. Hyperion keep compaining that they haven't enough money to support faster development, yet they don't ask for money from KMOS, who obviously has some money to throw around if they go around aquiring companies. It can only be that they like the deal they have now and are looking at the big picture. Hyperion have mentioned that they are not able to port to different PPC architectures and that licenses have to be purchased from AmigaInc/KMOS. So ultimately their hands are tied when it comes to an x86 port, even if it was possible.

Ok. Scampering back to my happy place now.
 

Offline BigBenAussie

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2004, 08:25:15 PM »
I think it ultimately came down to this.....Sorry if there are historical innacuracies, but feel free to correct me nicely.

AmigaInc(or an earlier incarnation) well after the fall of Commodore and all the changes of ownership, wanted to produce a new OS, ultimately based around an AmigaDE hardware agnostic system. Amigans went ballistic and understandably believed an Amiga to be about hardware, and the original OS, not some new fangled software. So AmigaInc reluctantly agreed, but due to the animosity of Amigans to the x86 platform, probably because of years of platform warfare, they couldn't take the x86 route. AmigaInc were berated when even the dev platforms for AmigaDE came out on x86. So AmigaInc went PPC and contracted Hyperion to produce a PPC AmigaOS. Of course they then made claims that it would be done very quickly....but I digress.

Also, with users crying out for speed increases on classic hardware, various companies created speed-up boards based on the PPC chip, because in those days they seemed like the natural progression to the Motorola 68k line. Also the whole simplicity of RISC computing seemed in line with the architectual proficiency of the AmigaOS. The x86 hardware, considered CISC(Although its apparently more RISC these days) was/is considered complicated bloat. So it made sense from a lot of people's view to go PPC and AmigaInc went so far as to support the Amiga community that had purchased these PPC boards as well, as OS4 will do.

Add to this what was going on in the tech industry at the time the decision was made. The IBM/Motorola/Apple alliance were going to create a common platform to rival the Intel platform, but later had a falling out as they couldn't agree on a common platform, which could have been leveraged by a new Amiga. It probably couldn't be forseen that Apple's stake in the PPC meant they get all the newest chips first, and due to the chip shortage would means a PPC Amiga would always be a generation behind Apple, and thus a generation behind x86 too.

The problem, as I see it, is not a matter of cost perse as the big box Amigas were always fairly expensive, but rather one of not being able to keep up with x86 hardware advancement, especially in the games advancement. Games sold the Amiga. Amigans wanted kick-ass hardware to run games and we simply haven't got it. AmigaOS is fine, and the hardware is fast enough to run it nicely, and we'll have a great user experience. But I believe the true essense of the Amiga was its advanced hardware, as it was designed as an advanced games console, that could be used as a computer.

The problem with the current line, like the A1s is that it is much like a PC, even coming in mobo form, and underpowered at that. Unfortunately it takes vast amounts of R&D to produce a kick-ass games console, that would be an Amiga computer. I think that is what we've all signed up for, with the PPC direction, but we never got the kick-ass hardware. With kick-ass games playing hardware you could justify the price.

The only way we can get there is if KMOS licenses a console manufacturer's hardware and ports AOS to it, rebranding it as an Amiga. Failing that, they could make a deal with a 3d card manufacturer to produce that killer integrated 3d games playing Amiga system. I know a lot of people don't care much for 3d, but that is what is the most impressive thing at the moment, and the only real way to Amiga's rebirth. Hardware standardisation was the Amiga's strength and creating an Amiga without custom chips just seems wrong, even if we don't hit the hardware any more.

Ok. Scampering back to my happy place now.
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2004, 08:50:29 PM »
@bigbenaussie

Well, you totally forgot one major part of the story. In 1997, Phase5 had already produced PPC boards for the Amiga and proved they could supply a viable hardware PPC platform for migration from 68k without having to drop legacy totally and suddently (which would be fatal for such a small software base). Other PPC solution announcements - amijoe, Brainstormer G3, the original Escena AmigaONE - turned out to be vapor and were never produced. The SharkPPC remains in limbo.

Amiga Inc was nothing really to do with the decision to go PPC. They chose to announce OS4 on PPC. This was more as an appeasement measure to hold their possible new market base together than any serious announcement, but they did have a reason in that bPlan (what remained of Phase5) did have software and hardware ready to become the new Amiga and OS4. This later became Pegasos and MorphOS after negotiations between AInc and bPlan broke down. Certain figures then decided it was better to fatally split the community than allow these non-Amiga branded solutions to become the new Amiga, even if in doing so it meant virtually no profit for anyone. Think about it - they did this really for Amiga Inc, who have done NOTHING for the community. Sad.

And on the related subject Amiga Inc. probably didn't choose Amithlon or AmigaOS XL to go on to become OS4, simply because they could never have licenced x86 boards and got their cut the same way they could with proprietary hardware. That's all, really.
 

Offline Panthro

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2004, 09:27:48 PM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:
@bigbenaussie

Well, you totally forgot one major part of the story. In 1997, Phase5 had already produced PPC boards for the Amiga and proved they could supply a viable hardware PPC platform for migration from 68k without having to drop legacy totally and suddently (which would be fatal for such a small software base).


yeah and I've ALWAYS (even tho I own a PPC+Bvision) wondered WHY they went for the dodgie cache flushing context switching 68k/PPC  :-?  when they could have saved money + buyer cost + a faster board by having just a PPC chip with a 68k emulator????  

you could have held down ...say F8 to disable the card for old games (non os friendly etc.) I dont think this would have been a bad thing :-D
-Panthro
 

Offline itix

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2004, 09:47:33 PM »
Quote
yeah and I've ALWAYS (even tho I own a PPC+Bvision) wondered WHY they went for the dodgie cache flushing context switching 68k/PPC  when they could have saved money + buyer cost + a faster board by having just a PPC chip with a 68k emulator????

That is pretty much MorphOS now.

But just 68k emulator is not adequate. Emulating 68k on BPPC with static emulator is pretty slow and without PPC native OS even worse (emulated gfx, mui, ahi...? no way).
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline Dan

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #37 on: November 20, 2004, 10:21:13 PM »
Quote
AmigaDE is the new AmigaOS!
Apple did it right the first time, bring back the Newton!
 

Offline Hagbard

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #38 on: November 20, 2004, 10:40:18 PM »
Quote

The_Editor wrote:
X86 codebase ...?


How would you like to be infected today ?

Spyware ?
Adware?
Trojans?
virii ?

Please take your pick.


Please, do not make demagoguery.

Keep in mind that those issues does not affect to *all* x86 OSes.
x86 is not Windows (as B.Gates pretends to tell us). Take the example from an OpenBSD/i386:

"Only one remote hole in the default install, in more than 8 years!"

Please, don't get confused and don't confuse the people.
Amiga 1200 Elboxed * BlizzardPPC 603e+ * 128 RAM * 3 GB HD * Mediator 1200 * Voodoo Banshee *
Amiga 1200 Desktop * Blizzard 1230 * 16 RAM * 20 GB HD
 

Offline KennyR

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #39 on: November 20, 2004, 10:56:51 PM »
Quote
Hagbar wrote:

Quote
The_Editor wrote:
X86 codebase ...?


How would you like to be infected today ?

Spyware ?
Adware?
Trojans?
virii ?

Please take your pick.


Please, do not make demagoguery.

Keep in mind that those issues does not affect to *all* x86 OSes.
x86 is not Windows (as B.Gates pretends to tell us). Take the example from an OpenBSD/i386:

"Only one remote hole in the default install, in more than 8 years!"

Please, don't get confused and don't confuse the people.


Right. Also, The_Editor should realise that spyware exploits holes in scripting languages like JavaScript, or via holes in ActiveX or even Java applets. None of these are CPU-specific. A security hole in any of these is still a security hole on x86, PPC, StrongARM, 68k... It has nothing to do with the CPU at all.
 

Offline dmac721Topic starter

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2004, 12:59:05 AM »


   So the reason they went ppc is because some halfast company built and sold like a dozen add ons, and they are basing the fate of the entire Amiga community's future on an add on half working, half useful piece of hardware that nobody except for a select few could afford in the first place????  Right????
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2004, 01:07:46 AM »

Offline Damion

Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2004, 01:22:50 AM »
Quote

That about sums it up... there are technical merits for using a byte order agnostic CPU like the PPC... but they are outweighed by the cost benefits of the x86.


Guess it took me a while to get it, but once I realized that an _emulated_ '040 on a dirt-cheap XP mobile chip crunches numbers pretty much identical to a Pegasos G4, the advantage of something like AROS became pretty apparent.

(Talking from a strict "cost v performance" aspect here, I still miss my Pegasos and would own another if I won the lottery tomorrow, right after I bought my CLK-GTR..)

 

 

Offline AmiGR

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2004, 03:06:40 AM »
That "halfass" company was there for 10 years, making addons for the Amiga and Mac. They produced a fully
working (yet kludgy) solution. There were about 10000
boards sold according to Phase5 iirc.
- AMiGR

Evil, biased mod from hell.
 

Offline Holley

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Re: Again, Why didn't they port Amiga OS?
« Reply #44 from previous page: November 21, 2004, 03:57:46 AM »
Quote
the advantage of something like AROS became pretty apparent
ok, now imagine AROS running in 64 bit, at 4GHz ...
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