Who currently owns the rights

[Samuar]

@CatHerder
Hopefully it shouldnt be too expensive at all. The most expensive parts of PDAs are the screens (LCD & touch), the large amounts of memory and no doubt the Windows CE cost.

In essence, the idea is very similar to yours, but uses more work done by others - therefore reducing development time.
In fact, the key difference is a modern processor running UAE in some way - and once suggestion being via linux.

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

Samuar wrote:
UAE already works on Sega Dreamcasts - which come with controllers and TV-OUT; second hand they are about £20 and you can purchase Keyboards and Mice for them. Hell, I've got Doom on Linux running on mine.

Out of this box, we wouldnt need the GD-ROM Drive (special kind of CD-ROM) if replaced with flash; no need for the Modem or Broadband adapter - which would reduce its profile considerably.

Now that's a much better idea!

Get a simple MIPS box with a cheap VGA chip + an RF + USB. Put linux and UAE on it and you have your retro box.

Now you're saying a $130-$150 retail box item is a better idea... Interesting.

There are two flaws to your whole line of thinking. 1. It will never happen if the end product is in that price range. Anything over $50 and it will never see the light of day in the retail channels (you will never be able to convince anyone with a business model that claims people will pay $90 or $100 for these things when they can get an XBox, GameCube or PS2 for not a whole lot more -- and those offer NEW games).

And 2. the fact still remains: you need to license or purchase the IP for the ROMS (1.3 or 3.0 specifically) if you expect to sell these and not get sued for it. I also think Gateway (or whomever actually owns the Amiga IP) would be very interested in a product that is making money off emulating Amiga technologies. You can bet their lawyers will be knocking on the door very soon after your launch if you don't ensure you have the IP in order.

The reason retro gaming is so successful is because of the price point. It's nothing to do with a wide desire to play 15 year old games - it's because they are currently $19.95 and $24.95 items that people consider insignificant to purchase.

[bloodline]

seer wrote:
Relax Catherder. No need to make this look like an eye for an eye ANN based thread where everybody needs to show what was said.

You've read Bloodline's comments, he doesn't share your point of view, possible because you 2 have a different definitions on certain meanings. Either leave it as it is, or take the things you can use from his comments.

If you think your idea can work, and it seems others share your view, either work out a business plan (perhaps with some people here) and get some money or cancel it now.

Or just stop this thread and start a new one after gathering some info from what was said here.

Yeah, good advice. I just found it a really interesting disscussion, as it's something that I thought about alot about 5 years ago. The more research I did more, the less rosy the idea seemed :-(

[Samuar]

Embedded technology is not that expensive. Whislt the Dreamcast did cost $150 when it was released, that was arguably the best money could buy.

I think a £20 s/u dreamcast would make a good, cheap early prototype - it already has the stuff we need, although it comes with a lot of unnecessary extras.

The stage after would be to put together an embedded processor, small amount of RAM, a flash device plus it the input/output channel. Combine it with the software and we have our one off device.

Purchasing embedded components at the quantities you specified earlier would reduce the costs to little more than fabbing the components you were suggesting (if not cheaper because they are already being purchased by others). The big save would be that we wouldnt have to convert older designs to newer fabbing processors (or do any reverse engineering).

I consider this idea to be a merger of CatHerders and bloodlines suggestions and points.

As to the ROMs, i purchases a 1.3 ROM as part of a Amiga Emulator CD a while back (not as good as Amiga Forever no doubt) - but it was only £5. That £5 must have included the profit of the distributor and shop (Game/Electronics Beautique), the cost of licensing the ROM from Amiga and the costs and profit of the manufacturer. This would suggest to me, that the ROM is but a small fraction of the original £5 cost. Which, if the same licensing were available to us, would be perfect.

Samuar

PS//
I consider this to be one of the more interesting threads I have ever participated on.

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

Pricy?? An SH4 (SH5?) + a VGA Chip + a stereo audio DAC, running Linux. Nah, that is the best idea I've heard.

I bet you could bring that in for $10 per unit, which you could sell at $40.

Have you ever priced any of this out, or you just make guesses and post it?

i.e: how much for a 400MHz SH5 processor? Do you know? I happen to. Mind you, the last time I priced them out in quantities was about 20 days ago...

Do you know what VGA chip you would use? What's the cheapest one that can output Amiga resolutions and maintain at least 24fps? And how you would deliver that VGA display to a TV screen? As for audio, the AC97 (or cheaper) chip would cost around $0.80 per board if you bought it in quantities of 100,000.

How much to license the Amiga IP - that's the question you just keep avoiding because you do not seem to know what Intellectual Property is. $5 each? $20 each?

You will NOT be able to sell any sort of an Amiga emulator that uses any form of an Amiga ROM image (1.3 or 3.0 would be your most viable choices for widest compatability for the games that are available) without getting the IP licensed. And even selling the emulator is dicey at best without also lisencing the IP it's emulating (trust me, Gateway would be all over you like white on rice if you started selling Amiga emulator game devices and they were not getting a cut -- if they still own the IP that is).

[bloodline]

CatHerder wrote:

bloodline wrote:

Pricy?? An SH4 (SH5?) + a VGA Chip + a stereo audio DAC, running Linux. Nah, that is the best idea I've heard.

I bet you could bring that in for $10 per unit, which you could sell at $40.

Have you ever priced any of this out, or you just make guesses and post it?

yup just a guess based on the price per unit of the components. I don't know about the SH4 CPU, but my old router cost me £40 and had a a fairly powerful little MIPS cpu in it.  

i.e: how much for a 400MHz SH5 processor? Do you know? I happen to. Mind you, the last time I priced them out in quantities was about 20 days ago...

no I don't know about the SH4.. but any modern RISC embedded CPU will do and you can pick them up for a few $ in quanity.

Do you know what VGA chip you would use? What's the cheapest one that can output Amiga resolutions and maintain at least 24fps? And how you would deliver that VGA display to a TV screen? As for audio, the AC97 (or cheaper) chip would cost around $0.80 per board if you bought it in quantities of 100,000.

A simple VGA FB RAMDAC isn't goning to cost much at all, and by using UAE you don't have to worry about the Amiga Resolutions, which most games used 320*200 anyway with would scale to VGA without any problems.

For audio I would use a micro-controler with a lowpass filer + OPAMP as a simple PDM DAC... I expect the most expensive parts to be the ROM chips and the RAM.

How much to license the Amiga IP - that's the question you just keep avoiding because you do not seem to know what Intellectual Property is. $5 each? $20 each?

For 1.3, it's going to be tiny... There is some dispute as to if the 1.3 is even owned by anyone any more (but that a totally different matter).

You will NOT be able to sell any sort of an Amiga emulator that uses any form of an Amiga ROM image (1.3 or 3.0 would be your most viable choices for widest compatability for the games that are available) without getting the IP licensed. And even selling the emulator is dicey at best without also lisencing the IP it's emulating (trust me, Gateway would be all over you like white on rice if you started selling Amiga emulator game devices and they were not getting a cut -- if they still own the IP that is).

Not if you don't use any of their IP... which UAE doesn't.

[Samuar]

@CatHerder
Forgetting the wonderful world of IP for a second:
What does your idea use instead of our processor & chip combination and how is it cheaper?

[bloodline]

I pulled these specs for the SH-4 It really does seem like the prefect chip for the job (expensive though at $50/1k -Edit- that price is from 2002 :-D):

-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Item                       Specification
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Product Code               SH7760 (HD6417760BP200D)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Operating temperature       -40(degrees)C + 85(degrees)C
 range
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Operating voltage          Internal: 1.5V       I/O: 3.3V
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Operating frequency        200MHz (max.)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Processing speed           360MIPS, 1.4GFLOPS (at 200MHz)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
CPU core                   SH-4 core
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
CPU instructions           91 (16-bit fixed-length instructions)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Cache                      16-KB instructions/32-KB data separation,
                            two-way set associative, write
                            through/copy back selectable
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
External memory            Bus state controller supports SRAM,
                            Synchronous DRAM, Burst ROM
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Data bus width             External 8/16/32 bits selectable
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
On-chip peripheral         Interrupt controller (INTC)
 functions                 Direct memory access controller (DMAC)
                            x 8channels
                           Clock pulse generator (CPG) with phase
                            locked loop (PLL)
                           Watch dog timer (WDT)
                           User break controller (UBC)
                           Timer unit (TMU) x 3 channels
                           Compare match timer (CMT) x 4 channels
                           LCD controller (LCDC)
                           Smart card interface module (SIM)
                           10-bit resolution A/D converter
                            x 4 channels
                           Advance user debugger (AUD)
                           Hitachi user debug interface (H-UDI)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Interfaces                 Serial communication interface with FIFO
                            (SCIF) X 3 channels
                           I2C bus interface x 2 channels
                           Serial sound interface (SSI) x 2 channels
                           Hitachi Audio CODEC interface (HAC)
                            x 2 channels
                           USB host interface (version 1.1 support)
                            x 1 channel
                           Hitachi controller area network 2 (HCAN2)
                            x 2 channels
                           Hitachi serial peripheral interface (HSPI)
                           MultiMediaCard interface (MMCIF)
                           NAND flash memory interface
                           Multi-function interface (MFI)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Power-down modes           Sleep mode
                           Deep sleep mode
                           Software stand-by mode
                           Hardware stand-by mode
                           Module stand-by mode
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------
Package                    BGA-256 pin (21mm X 21mm, 1.0 mm pitch)
-------------------------- -------------------------------------------

[Samuar]

...not to mention existing OS support, from an OS which UAE runs on too.

[CatHerder]

Samuar wrote:

As to the ROMs, i purchases a 1.3 ROM as part of a Amiga Emulator CD a while back (not as good as Amiga Forever no doubt) - but it was only £5. That £5 must have included the profit of the distributor and shop (Game/Electronics Beautique), the cost of licensing the ROM from Amiga and the costs and profit of the manufacturer. This would suggest to me, that the ROM is but a small fraction of the original £5 cost. Which, if the same licensing were available to us, would be perfect.

That is very interesting. I assume it's a valid (legitimate) ROM as it came from a larger retailer. Hopefully it is, that would, to me, imply a 25 cent license. The cheaper everything is, the more likely this would be a successful venture.

I've emailed (and faxed) Cloanto asking them about the ROM license and what sort of quantity agreements they offer but haven't heard anything back from them.

[bloodline]

Samuar wrote:
...not to mention existing OS support, from an OS which UAE runs on too.

This cought my eye:

http://www.logicpd.com/eps/som/renesas/SH7760-10/


I've requested a quote per 1K

-Edit- the Board is of a much higher spec than we would need but would be a great for a tech demo.

[CatHerder]

.

Samuar wrote:
@CatHerder

What does your idea use instead of our processor & chip combination and how is it cheaper?

Leaving all IP concerns aside... :-)

My idea from the get go was either the same processor in the Dreamcast and a 300mm fab ROM with everything else on a very simple PCB. Or an embedded processor/ROM combo with all information excluding the games which would be contained in a 2nd ROM (this would allow for multiple versions of the game devices and probably would end up being cheaper in the long run - however the first option might be true as well). There is also another processor out there that is probably cheaper and I know is already smaller (and uses less battery or AC) and runs cooler.

The processor inside the Dreamcast is HOT. Have to keep that in mind - if you have to use a $3 heat spreader (they don't get cheaper than that) it defeats the purpose of spending $3 on one chip instead of $4.00 on another chip.

I also didn't see any issue with using a P2-400 integrated solution similar to what intel already delivers in automotive applications and other automated fabrication uses. It all comes down to cost - AND - what is available out there to emulate on. You don't want to have to reinvent the wheel every step of the way. You want to try to do this with off-the-shelf parts, or using a fab that allows you to use existing toolsets plus your own new tool(s).

Existing intel chips are tiny, and use about 1/32nd of the power that they did when they were inside PCs 5 years ago (I'm comparing a P2-400 today to a P2-400 when they were relatively new). They also have quite a number of existing solutions that fit with other toolsets from other major chip fabs (this means being able to integrate an existing cpu with additional tools into one sigle chip).

There's a few processor options available. The best solution will be the one that is 1) cheapest to buy in quantiy, 2) easiest to adopt using existing emulation, 3) has the ability to be embedded with other applications in a new wafer fab and 4) uses the least power.  

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:

I just found it a really interesting disscussion, as it's something that I thought about alot about 5 years ago. The more research I did more, the less rosy the idea seemed :-(

Me too. I've been thinking about this for that long as well (ever since I was running Amiga stuff on my PC and then on my DreamCast, etc..). My buddy Rob had a game console (a converted arcade machine) with a PC inside it running MAME and Amiga stuff years before anyone thought that would be a cool idea to do. Now we have XGamers

The thing is today the idea is looking rosy. The technology is now here to be able to deliver a cost effective product featuring 15 year old "tech" in a way that is "cool". It's also in a way that is "cool" to financial backers and retailers as well (everyone can see how they will make money off this).

[Samuar]

ARM is another alternative, particularly since UAE has a working binary for it. Not sure as to pricing.

Samuar

[MskoDestny]

I don't think the Dreamcast is powerful enough to emulate the Amiga properly.  It has enough trouble emulating the Genesis which it only does reasonably well when using the PowerVR to do most of the graphics emulation.  This causes glitches in some games and would probably not work as well for the Amiga hardware (the copper makes the kind of raster f/x that screw up these techniques that much easier).  IIRC, the SH-4 doesn't scale much beyond 200MHz (the speed of the SH-4 in the Dreamcast) so I don't think it's a realistic choice here.

Out of curiousity, about how many gates are in the OCS or ECS chipset (not counting the 68k)?

[CatHerder]

bloodline wrote:
-Edit- the Board is of a much higher spec than we would need but would be a great for a tech demo.

Could probably get a cheaper ITX board for a demo.

You can get one with an SIS 2GHz processor and integrated everything for about $70.00 and most measure 5in by 5in.

Here's one as an example.



It's still too much $, but it demonstrates how small a full blown PC can be... one that runs todays applications (including web servers and database servers -- there's even dual CPU Mini-ITX boards out there now). A couple good writeups can be found here: http://www.mini-itx.com/