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Offline PMCTopic starter

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Space Oddyssey
« on: November 10, 2004, 02:19:53 PM »
Did anyone watch the BBC docu last night about a fictional voyage across the solar system?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3992971.stm

Got me thinking... Where would we be now if we'd kept up the momentum of the Space Race in the 60s?  Would we be colonising the moon or be commercialising space?

Looking at NASA's fleet of twenty plus year old shuttles, I wonder where we lost our fascination for exploration.  Nearly forty years on, the achievements of the Apollo missions are even more astounding for the time.  Did we really lose our motivation with Richard Nixon's famous post Apollo 11 declaration "the party's over"?

To put my feelings in perspective the difference between the first flight of a Spitfire and Apollo 11 was a mere 33 years....  

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Offline blobrana

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2004, 03:04:42 PM »
Yeah, i caught the program...
Really cool images, though the story line was a bit dry and pointless...
Hammy acting let down the real story, though it was clearly designed  to be acessable to kids, but 9:00 and 10:00 was a bit late...
And I rushed outside afterwards to catch the aurora display, a busy nite for me.

 Space Odyssey: Voyage to the Planets  repeated 14 Nov, 3.15pm BBC Two and Space Odyssey: The Robot Pioneers 10 Nov, 12.10am BBC Four.


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"Having a sense of beauty and aesthetics is an important part of being a scientist. Nature seems to be a believer in Occam's Razor: given a choice between something messy or a beautiful solution, Nature invariably goes for beauty."

Offline PMCTopic starter

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2004, 04:12:58 PM »
Quote

blobrana wrote:
Yeah, i caught the program...
Really cool images, though the story line was a bit dry and pointless...
Hammy acting let down the real story, though it was clearly designed  to be acessable to kids, but 9:00 and 10:00 was a bit late...



The dialogue was pretty awful, but it was something that reminded me of my youthful fascination with all things space.

Quote


And I rushed outside afterwards to catch the aurora display, a busy nite for me.



You saw the Aurora?  Lucky so and so....  Erm, I don't suppose you got any pics?  Have never seen the Northern (or Southern) Lights and have promised myself that one day I will.

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Offline Cymric

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2004, 04:52:35 PM »
I think what we realised is that if you want to go into outer space---and with that I already mean 'go to Mars'---you need incredible amounts of money, and accept that you will see almost nothing of it back, except in perhaps a few clever spin-off technologies, and lots of fascinating history documentaries.

Take the Bush administration's wild idea to go Mars, for example. We have learnt a lot about human physiology in zero g, and almost nothing about it is good. We are literally addicted to gravity. Now gravity can be simulated, but if you look at the feeble appearance of some of the Russian cosmonauts after just one year in Earth's orbit...  And that is just the beginning. There is the problem of an open nuclear reactor with a power output of 4.0*10^26 W a scant hundred million miles off, which pumps out so much radiation that an astronaut can only make one journey to Mars and back again in his lifetime. Going beyond Mars is suicide. Then there is the problem of what to do with people living in a closed and confined area for months at a time, with no option of stepping out and taking a breath of fresh air for a while. Sex is another issue. It would be a mistake to think that astronauts can bottle up their hormones for the better part of three years (= Mars journey time). I have a strong feeling that hell will freeze over ere NASA publically admits that the capsule will be carrying a few thousand condoms, sponsored by Durex. What about washing clothes? What about the problem that due to the zero g-environment, most sense of smell is lost so that food (important booster of morale) becomes tasteless? What about medical aid 75 million miles from the nearest hospital? What about communications, which take a few minutes to reach Earth? And so on, and so on.

They are interesting problems for sure, but I think that most of them cannot be solved easily. The best option we have is either a super engine which cuts travel times to mere weeks instead of years, or some sort of suspended animation, and neither will be available in the foreseeable future.

Now suppose we try the Moon instead. We've been there before, it takes us about 4 days of hard travelling, and perhaps a bit less if a new Saturn V (the only rocket capable of getting people to the moon!) is designed. That is doable, it's practically off-the-shelf technology. Now we are at the Moon. What will we do there? Well, we build a base! Okay, so we have a base. What do we do at the base? (Remember, it costs money to get us to the Moon, and no country in the world can support a Moonbase on the power of positivism alone!) The Moon offers unprecendented means of scientific observation, because of the lack of an atmosphere.  You can mine kazillion tons of helium-3, which might one day prove useful if we ever get a fusion reactor operational. It offers great sex too, since the surface gravity is only 1/6th of Earth's. Tourists will dig that. But since you need a hefty and costly space suit to go out into the harsh and unforgiving (but beautiful) barrenness of the Moon's surface, that is about all you can do. And that is the Moon.

Make no mistake, I love space, and I am heartily envious of all the guys over at JPL who get to ride little cars on the surface of another planet and get paid to do so as well. I just think that given our current state of technology, we should not endeavour anything more strenuous than a return to the Moon for purely scientific reasons. When we have a working fusion drive, I'll review my opinion, but until then, we should stay put on Earth, and send every bold 'because it's there'-statement to the trash can.
Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well.
 

Offline bjjones37

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2004, 08:15:54 PM »
by Cymric on 2004/11/10 10:52:35

Now suppose we try the Moon instead. We've been there before, it takes us about 4 days of hard travelling, and perhaps a bit less if a new Saturn V (the only rocket capable of getting people to the moon!) is designed. That is doable, it's practically off-the-shelf technology. Now we are at the Moon. What will we do there? Well, we build a base! Okay, so we have a base. What do we do at the base?
___________________________________________________________

I have always thought it was a shame that this has not been done.  Certain industrial processes would inherently be much cheaper and easier on the moon due to lighter gravity and availability of decompression.  Imagine a clean room where electronic components are manufactured.  Nothing is going to blow in.  And do we even know the potential for chemical systhesis in a vacuum?  A lot of oxygen is trapped in the minerals on the moons surface and there is an abundant supply of solar energy which could be converted into electricity.  The Earth provides a convenient gravity well into which canisters can be 'dropped' which should survive well if properly packaged and perhaps glided or parachuted in. It is undoubtedly expensive boosting manned flights to the moon but not all flights need be manned and this can reduce expenses. Many industrial processes on the moon can be handled by automation or remote control so a permanent human presence is not necessarily required. No doubt so more educated soul is going to burst my bubble, but it is nice to dream. :-)  

Any obstacle can be an opportunity, try a different perspective.
 

Offline blobrana

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2004, 08:32:39 PM »
@PMC
Yeah,
but nothing to phone home about...
A misty gray glow, with a few bright rays, but no vivid colours...

i`ve seen better.
Didn`t even bother to take photos...

But here`s (someone elses) photo of a decent display.

 just for you....  :-)

Offline bjjones37

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2004, 09:34:54 PM »
by blobrana on 2004/11/10 14:32:39

But here`s (someone elses) photo of a decent display.
___________________________________________________________

You have a great collection of astronomy shots there.
 :-) Think I just found another set of screen saver pics. :-)
Any obstacle can be an opportunity, try a different perspective.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2004, 11:14:30 PM »
It was quite cool I thought. It also was rather poingant in the respect that my childhood was filled with dreams like this. Then, technological progress was gauged in terms of solar exploration by space probes, feats of engineering etc.

Nowadays, technological progress is the ability to watch cheesy pap by britney spears on your 3G phone and how many FPS you can get in Doom3 on your gaming rig.

It was kind of dissapointing to see that we can explore the solar system only as a set of rendering and special effects, courtesy of said super fast computers :-/

What the hell went wrong? Of course space exploration is simply too much expense for to little (financial) return at present.


All that said, I have to say I thought the venus landing was pushing it too far :-)

Making a suit to withstand 92 Bar is one thing, making one to withstand 450+ C another, but one that can withstand both and be wearable is quite another still. Of course, it was supposedly only for 2 hours - but that's the point. I doubt anybody would actually sanction a mission that offered so much risk with so little return ;-)
int p; // A
 

Offline PMCTopic starter

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2004, 11:24:28 AM »
Quote

blobrana wrote:
But here`s (someone elses) photo of a decent display.

 just for you....  :-)


Cheers Blob,

I'll have to check out the pictures on your site, they're pretty cool.
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Offline spaceape

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2004, 10:32:19 PM »
Condoms? There have been EPT kits aboard the ISS since the second crew (including 1 woman/Susan Helms) went aboard. I would think the Ortho-Evra birth control patch would be better for the sex thing. Remember how fluids love to misbehave in zero G, too. I can easily imagine some poor sod heard shouting, "What the Hell is this, then?" It would give velcro a whole new fun lease on life and let's always keep a lot of duct tape handy, also!
 

Offline asian1

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2004, 12:38:37 PM »
>Velcro

Hi
See:

http://www.uncarved.org/AAA/sex.html

Elaine Lerner, an American inventor, has already patented a harness to allow one partner to exercise control of the movements of the hips of the other partner during a zero-g intercourse.

=======================================

For long term missions to Pluto / stars, perhaps NASA will try to create new generation of astronauts in space. Perhaps it will be called: "HOMO SPACIENS".

http://www.space.edu/LibraryResearch/sex.html

This could conceivably lead to, as Frazer (1991(b)) suggests, the creation of a new human form, "homo spaciens " (p. 45). The homo spacien would be better suited to space than normal humans, but would forever be unable to survive on Earth-gravity worlds. "I find it a frightening and deeply disturbing, yet fascinating, possibility," says Wiley (as quoted in Frazer, 1991(b), p. 45).

>Collins: Husband and wife astronauts team

What happen if member of the team are OJ Simpson and Nicole Brown? (see Capricorn One) :)

http://www.movieactors.com/ScienceFiction/a3.htm
 

Offline blobrana

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2004, 11:30:25 PM »
Hum,
clip from `friends`,
 "Homo Spaciens are human..."
Joey says reassuringly, "Oh, I'm not being judgmental."

Offline PMCTopic starter

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2004, 09:03:46 AM »
Quote

spaceape wrote:
Condoms? There have been EPT kits aboard the ISS since the second crew (including 1 woman/Susan Helms) went aboard. I would think the Ortho-Evra birth control patch would be better for the sex thing.


A husband and wife team have already flown on one of the shuttles IIRC.  Rumour has it the shuttle commander of the mission was quoted as saying "they went below for a while, could have been doing anything" with a wry grin on his face.  

I'm sure I read that astronauts generally report loss of libido in zero g, for periods of up to a fortnight after returning to Earth.
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Offline Star69

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2004, 12:03:44 PM »
@PMC

Quote

You saw the Aurora?  Lucky so and so....  Erm, I don't suppose you got any pics?  Have never seen the Northern (or Southern) Lights and have promised myself that one day I will.



Head up north, I live near Inverness and see them about 4 times a year.  I haven't seen anything as spectacular as Blobrana's photo - but I think that's because of the setting :-D
 

Offline asian1

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Re: Space Oddyssey
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2004, 12:13:42 PM »
Hi
What happen if they run out of food during the 3 years mission?
Will they turn into cannibalism? (airplane crash in Chile, 1972)

What happen to ISS food stock? Is there any "invisible" space gremlin? :-)

==================================================\
From BBC:
Space crew 'using up food supply'
 
Floating in zero gravity can be a hungry business. It seems someone on the International Space Station has been super-sizing their meals: food is running so low that evacuation has been considered.
The cargo spacecraft Progress is due to take up supplies before Christmas, but astronauts might need to evacuate if its launch is delayed.  Progress is due to take off from Baikonur space centre in Kazakhstan at 2119 GMT on 23 December.  It will deliver food, fuel, water and packages for the American astronaut and the Russian cosmonaut who make up the space station crew.
"If for some reason the cargo spacecraft does not bring the food containers to the station by the beginning of January, the crew members may have to be urgently evacuated from there," a spokesperson for the Institute of Medical and Biological Studies told the Interfax news agency.
"Even today the crew is short of certain foodstuffs, but the situation is not critical."  
Our correspondent says that, for now, the crew are being told to watch what they eat to conserve supplies. Long-duration missions in space like the ISS demand a constant supply of consumable materials from Earth. The Progress supply ship was devised as a solution to this problem.