Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Copyright of contributions in these forums  (Read 3871 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CymricTopic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2002
  • Posts: 1031
    • Show only replies by Cymric
Copyright of contributions in these forums
« on: October 07, 2004, 02:53:59 PM »
I have a question about Rogue's current disclaimer. In it he states that '... This message may not be reproduced in any form without [my] permission...'. Can this be legally enforced? I mean, any site making a snapshot of a page with that text on it is already in breach of that disclaimer. My loading the page in to my browser's cache is already problematic. Looking at the text in A.org's archives is iffy. Heck, even quoting Rogue in the same thread is not allowed!

Mind, before people tumble over me, eager for a big flamefest, I understand why he puts it there. He wants to contribute to the discussion, yet his working for Hyperion puts him in a very awkward position. Fanboys will happily rip out parts of what he writes and use it to their own ends, distorting whatever they like. All that Rogue can do is damage control, and that must be exceedingly frustrating. So he warns everyone not to copy or cite what he writes before he gives his approval. All very understandable. But is it legal?

I guess the question boils down to who owns the copyright of the texts posted on these and in fact any public forum. If it rests with Wayne, being the provider of the forums, then Rogue's disclaimer can only be there with his approval. (With the two of them sorting it out who goes after offenders of the disclaimer.) If it rests with the persons who write the messages, well, I then suppose that I can start charging y'all for illegal reproduction of my personal work :-D. On a more serious note, it means that all the issues I mentioned above must be cleared, because otherwise the usefulneess of the entire forum is blown to smithereens.

I hope that the people who become involved in answering this thread realise that I am not asking this out of hate or personal gain. My question is simply: am I required to comply with Rogue's disclaimer, or any other disclaimer people put in their sigs over here; and if yes, to what extent, and if no, well...?
Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well.
 

Offline odin

  • Colonization had Galleons
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 6796
    • Show only replies by odin
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2004, 03:00:25 PM »
-edit-
On third thought perhaps not..

IYAM his sig is quite ironically ment.

  • Guest
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2004, 03:10:10 PM »
Quote
This message may not be reproduced in any form without [my] permission...'. Can this be legally enforced?
No.  It can not.  If a piece of text is posted in a public forum, it -- by definition -- cannot be considered as "protected text".  "disclaimers" which are not agreed to by both parties (the writer AND the reader) cannot be enforced.  

That agreement can be either implicit or implied (within reason).  Take the Microsoft EULA in their software.  You don't sign an agreement, but by clicking agree then using their software, you have agreed to abide by their rules and they can enforce it.

There is however no agreement (either expressed or implied) to an "after-disclaimer" in reading a forum post.  Secure mailing lists are different.  When you join a secured mailing list, you agree, by defacto to the rules implied by the list owners.  Usually that includes confidentiality agreements.

While ARTICLES posted to a Web site could be considered protected, posts to a public forum where there is no confidentiality agreement are not protectable.

If Rogue, Ben, or anyone else places such a disclaimer, it can only be presumed that it's a request, not an enforceable demand.  

edit : Looking further at Rogue's signature;

"All opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Hyperion Entertainment."

He clearly expresses that he's speaking for himself, not his company.  If such a disclaimer were not there, it would be presumable that by making such a request, that they are representing the official position of their company.

P.S. - No one needs my permission to put a disclaimer on their forum posts.  It's hard enough for people like Ben or Rogue to speak out publicly without their words being contorted and used against them.  

P.P.S. - It's only common sense for them to want to state openly that they are speaking with their personal opinion, and that they request that you not cross-post their comments to other sites (which is normally done out of context).

Wayne
 

Offline CymricTopic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2002
  • Posts: 1031
    • Show only replies by Cymric
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2004, 03:32:24 PM »
@Wayne:

Thanks for clearing that up. I knew I was playing the devil's advocate a little by thinking out loud what the consequences would be, but I hope that I made it clear that my question was an honest one.

In addition, I do not completely agree with what you wrote about the second half of Rogue's disclaimer. The first half affects actions of other persons, as Rogue is not doing the reproducing. The second half is informative about his own actions, which he has and should always have control over. It would be very strange indeed if he would need your permission to say his views are or are not his own.
Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well.
 

  • Guest
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2004, 03:40:44 PM »
Cymric,

Not sure what you disagree with.  As stated, the "do not reproduce" is a request, not an enforceable legal demand.

That being said, I would -- simply out of respect -- remove any cross-posted materials if requested.  Some other webmasters don't feel the need for respect of other people.

Let's face it.  In the Amiga community, when people cross-post forum posts to other sites (most notably moobunny or ANN) it's usually ALWAYS done in an out-of-context manner to troll or otherwise cause discontent in the community.  There's usually ALWAYS a hidden agenda behind it so if you're even remotely intelligent, you would have to also question the agenda of the less-than-honorable person that cross-posts it to begin with.

But, in the end, such text in a disclaimer is only a request and cannot be enforced in US law.

In regards to the second half, I did specifically state that no one needs my permission to add a disclaimer.  As such, not sure what you're disagreeing with.

Wayne
 

Offline CymricTopic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2002
  • Posts: 1031
    • Show only replies by Cymric
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2004, 08:57:51 PM »
Well, it's hard to put to words, really. I think I you meant to elaborate a little further about what can and what can not be enforced, but looking back, I must have imagined things.
Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well.
 

Offline itix

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2002
  • Posts: 2380
    • Show only replies by itix
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2004, 09:31:10 PM »
Well, not any kind of copyright could stop quoting (or misquoting). And if it is on a public forum it doesnt make difference do you provide a link or quote him (in the context).
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline Azryl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 395
    • Show only replies by Azryl
    • http://www.azryl.com
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2004, 10:45:17 PM »
In Australia any text that can be read on a computer screen is  classified as 'published' so anyone who posts deflamitaory words to/about an Australian in a public forum is liable to criminal and civil liabilities.

I will try to find the actual legal summary in this matter as it involved a long court case involving many influential Australian's having a good old troll fight online :-P

So dont go calling me names !!!  
lol

edit > found the page
http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html#cases
Completely useless? I can always be used as a bad example  :lol:
 

  • Guest
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2004, 10:48:01 PM »
Quote
So dont go calling me names
I promise not to call you names....

Azryl Azryl Azryl Azryl Azryl

erm... Did I write that out loud?  

:laughing:
 

Offline Azryl

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2004
  • Posts: 395
    • Show only replies by Azryl
    • http://www.azryl.com
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2004, 10:50:11 PM »
hey!! I read that...  >speed dials his lawyer< :-P
Completely useless? I can always be used as a bad example  :lol:
 

Offline Rogue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 566
    • Show only replies by Rogue
    • http://www.hyperion-entertainment.com
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2004, 01:02:11 AM »
Quote
If Rogue, Ben, or anyone else places such a disclaimer, it can only be presumed that it's a request, not an enforceable demand


It is to be understood as such. My problem is,my postings are being used out-of-context to start a flame-fest on some other forum. I don't remember the specifics, but when I added this disclaimer it was because of exactly such an incidence.

Quote
He clearly expresses that he's speaking for himself, not his company. If such a disclaimer were not there, it would be presumable that by making such a request, that they are representing the official position of their company


I'm afraid the finer points of this disclaimer is incomprehensible to certain characters, because I often hear sentences like "so is this the official stance of Hyperion" when the disclaimer clearly states otherwise.

I guess no amount of disclaiming or stating-the-obvious will protect you against willfull misinterpretation.
Look out, I\'ve got a gun
 

Offline Trev

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2003
  • Posts: 1550
  • Country: 00
    • Show only replies by Trev
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2004, 01:16:38 AM »
In the United States, unless you state otherwise, you own the copyright. This applies to any written work, electronic or otherwise. Copyrights are not perpetual, so your work will eventually join the public domain.

You are only required to comply with Rogue's diclaimer to the extent that it complies with the law. As others have mentioned, fair use may entitle you to quote or otherwise reproduce the work.

I'm clueless about other countries, but international copyright treaties generally enforce the copyright laws of the country of origin.

EDIT:

I just noticed that Rogue signs his messages "Hans-Jörg Frieden, Hyperion Entertainment." Doing so implies that he is speaking on behalf of Hyperion Entertainment. If I were you, Rogue, I'd remove "Hyperion Entertainment" from my signature. :-)

Trev
 

  • Guest
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2004, 03:14:56 AM »
Quote
I guess no amount of disclaiming or stating-the-obvious will protect you against willfull misinterpretation.
This is the Amiga community.  There is no reason nor rhyme here.  I'd love to be able to squarely blame it on the years of neglect by Amiga parent companies or the dishonorable actions of others, but the true problems lie in the blind advocacy and fascistic practices of a few rotten apples.  That's always the way, isn't it?

"When confronted with logic and reason, the insecure man rebels". - Gil Grissom, CSI.
 

Offline Argo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 3219
    • Show only replies by Argo
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2004, 05:28:18 AM »
@Trev
Quote
just noticed that Rogue signs his messages "Hans-Jörg Frieden, Hyperion Entertainment." Doing so implies that he is speaking on behalf of Hyperion Entertainment. If I were you, Rogue, I'd remove "Hyperion Entertainment" from my signature.


I don't know if I agree. I can see it being a possible problem, but I think it helps add credibility to his posts as someone in the know and informed. Not to mention that it points out to new people returning to the fray who he is and works for. IE. where he fits into the grand scheme of things.
His disclaimer, basically, just points out that while he does point out that he is a Hyperion employee that what he posts is not an offical Hyperion responce.
In the end it's up to him.
 

Offline AndrewKorn

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Join Date: Dec 2002
  • Posts: 38
    • Show only replies by AndrewKorn
Re: Copyright of contributions in these forums
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2004, 05:29:01 AM »
Trev's comments are pretty much spot on, but I'll clarify a little*.

The "thou shalt not"s a the bottom of HJ's mail have no contractual standing on their own as they do not consitute an agreement between the parties. However, the admonition not to republish is a clear indication of intent of authorization. Any created work which is substantially original is automatically the copyright of its author, and copyright includes the right to authorize or forbid usage by others.

 All other things being equal, the notice not to distribute does not affect the legal standing of  a copyright material, it merely makes it harder to argue your way out of the already existing protection that exists under national and international copyright laws. One might argue that posting on a.org consituted an "implicit agreement" for the mail to be reposted as it is a forum in which, generally, such activites are common. Obviously if the posting comes with a notice that clearly states the message is not to be copied, this argument holds no water.

Contrary to the belief of many, the mere fact that a work is published in a public forum does NOT imply license to those reading it to copy or redistribute the work. In copyright terms, such presentation of the material is considered "public display", and is entirely subject to copyright. The fact that the author has posted it in a particular forum clearly indicates that implicit permission is granted to the owners of that forum to reproduce that material in that instance. No such authorization is granted to any visitors to the forum, however. This is pretty obvious if you think about the parallels - clearly if a movie poster is placed in a public location, people passing that poster are not granted the right to reproduce the copyrighted artwork, for instance. A book in a library can be read by anyone, but nobody is granted any right to republish the book. An article published on nytimes.com is just as protected by copyright as if it had been published in the newsprint edition.

As far as I'm aware (copyright protection is so horrendously complex that IANAL does not cover it - lawyers can argue for years about this stuff), if the terms and conditions of a public forum require the waiving of copyright by posters, then posting to the forum would constitute a contractual acceptance on the part of the author that the copyright had been waived (I haven't checked to see whether a.org has such a clause). If there is no such clause in the terms, make no mistake, the original author retains complete ownership and control of copyright.

There are circumstances under which reposting is allowed - for example if the posting might not be considered "substantially original" (for example, a posting that just says "ROFL!" does not count). Fair use laws generally allow for a reasonable proportion of the material to be reproduced under certain circumstances, but not the reproduction of the entire work (except for certain private, archival or academic purposes). The copyright also applies only to the actual composition, not to the informational content of that composition, and therefore the original content may be paraphrased and small parts of it quoted without authorization of the copyright holder.

In an instance where a posting constitutes a "work" under copyright law, and that post is reposted without permission, the individual reposting has breached the author's copyright, and can be held legally liable. What's more, the owner / operator of the forum to which the work is reposted may also be held liable. For example, if HJ posted something here which was "substantially original" and therefore constituted a copyrighted work, and somebody reposted it on anotheramigaboard.com, that person would have performed "direct infringement" of HJ's copyright. If HJ then contacted the owner of anotheramigaboard.com to ask him to remove the post and said owner refused, he or she would have performed at the least "contributory infringement" (see RTC vs Netcom for the classic case on sysop liability).

Now most people aren't going to actually do anything about it, and given that generally there is no financial damage caused by such reposting, there would be little advantage to the original poster in pursuing the copyright infringer, unless they felt like making a point. However this should not be taken as a given. For example, HJ might sneakily chose to register his copyright of a forum posting with the US copyright office, in which case there are statutory fines involved - minimum $15,000 if a US citizen then infringes his rights (such as by reposting), if I remember correctly.

In short, if someone posts something that has a "do not repost" notice, heed that notice. If it's interesting enough to reproduce elsewhere, that suggests it's probably a "substantially original" work, and is subject to copyright. Unless you know for sure that the poster has in other ways granted license to copy (such as by agreeing to waive copyright), you are almost certainly breaking copyright laws. The best guideline when it comes to copyright issues  is "If in doubt, don't."


* Apologies, but if this doesn't look like just "a little" to you, you've never delved into copyright legislation!

--- IRONIC DISCLAIMER---
IANAL and might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm not - I've spent a fair bit of time reading up on copyright laws and case studies. I've generally quoted the specifics & terminology of US copyright law (this is a US site), but my generalisations hold for most international copyright laws. For the record, I hereby grant a universal and non-exclusive right to everyone to reproduce this work, under the single condition that it be reproduced unattributed (i.e. you can do what the heck you like with it - I just don't want the blame) ;-). Next time someone comes up with the old "it's in a public forum, it's not copyright" line, feel free to repost.