Save Scening with AAA

[kengur]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I was saying about TV output. I work on a small TV station which used to use Amigas for output before PCs with ATI cards came here. The point is that ATI just can not match AGA`s image quality. Maybe Amiga`s TV modulator is better than one in ATI`s card. Or maybe Win2000 can`t make the most out of ATI.

[mikeymike]

@ kengur

Oh, fair enough.  AFAIK you don't get decent TV output from a PC unless you go into super-duper high cost hardware :-)

I doubt the TV modulator on its own is the key with the Amiga's TV output, all its graphics capabilities were geared round the fact that it was mainly used to plug into televisions, but what do I know, I'm just an ignorant fisherman :-)

[Dan]

Yes we want a computer with proper TVout not converted VGA crap.
In reasonable pricerange not SGI millon and a half.
And as often seen on TV MACs don´t have tvout neither

[gregthecanuck]

Hi Downix -

YES - I meant custom-designed and fabricated chip sets.

Anything you custom-design for the small Amiga market will probably be eclipsed within 6 months to 1 year.  Got a few millions to tens-of-millions to throw out the window?

Microsoft supports new hardware features by continually updating the feature-set supported by their Direct-X system.  In fact some of their latest software specs for Direct-X are pushing the graphics card manufacturers into developing certain features.  Yup, software is driving the hardware.  Funny, eh?  

You seemed to forget that most/all game consoles are a money-losing proposition.  Microsoft's X-Box is still not profitable.  Only Bill Gates ego is keeping it alive.  They have the billions in the bank to wait it out.   Most companies don't.

The best Amiga can do is something like Direct-X but with as few layers of "crap" between the software and the hardware.  



Greg

[gregthecanuck]

@ Atheist

Hello there!   :-D

There shouldn't be any custom graphic or sound cards developed unless there is a very compelling reason (i.e. a customer says "develop _this_ and I will take 1 million units").

If someone wants AGA then write a chipset emulator in software.  Way cheaper and easy bug fixes.  Isn't UAE getting close to that stage anyway?  This shows it is entirely possible.  In fact UAE appears to be a reasonable way to support hardware-banging applications (usually games?) on a new PPC platform.



Greg

[Eric_Z]

That being said..
[/fluffy unrealistic dream mode on]
 It would be nice  to have some kind of on board chipset that would enable screen dragging and other "Amigaish" functions but (and here's the trick) does not rule out the use of modern graphics cards. Or in other words a chipset that would keep all of the functions of the graphics card which one chooses to use but adds the functions of the on board chipset .
[fluffy unrealistic dream mode/]

[Herewegoagain]

Well Eric_Z, you are thinking more like me.  But then there is the problem of where does it fit in?  On the system board, a PCI card, or  And how much additional cost would it add to the system?

It would be cool to put a modern version of AAA into a new package that could be added in at will.  Then you  would truely have things like screen dragging in hardware, but at the same time get the 3D and other stuff from your Radeon, etc.  I wouldn't want to see the system OS dependent upon it, but to use it if available would be great.

[Lando]

gregthecanuck wrote:
If someone wants AGA then write a chipset emulator in software.  Way cheaper and easy bug fixes.  Isn't UAE getting close to that stage anyway?  This shows it is entirely possible.  In fact UAE appears to be a reasonable way to support hardware-banging applications (usually games?) on a new PPC platform.
Greg

You still can't emulate AGA in UAE.  It doesn't work.  Oh yes, it pretends to work.  But it doesn't.  
Timing is out  (which causes problems in games or apps which rely on exact chipset timing and with certain copperlists), update is jerky rather than smooth (You don't get 50/60Hz silky-smooth scrolling like on a real Amiga) and colours are not the same.  And in fullscreen mode the emulated AGA screen never seems to fit the screen properly,  even after mucking about with the display settings for ages.  Theres other problems too....

[Lando]

Anything you custom-design for the small Amiga market will probably be eclipsed within 6 months to 1 year. Got a few millions to tens-of-millions to throw out the window?

It doesn't matter if it's eclipsed.  I mean, PS2 was eclipsed by XBox and GameCube a year ago - did every Playstation2 user immediately ditch their PS2 and get a GC or XBox?  Nope instead its still outselling them both and accounting for 28% of the Games Software market compared to XBox's 4% and GameCube's 2 or 3%.  And Sony are sticking with PS2 for another 3 years at least.  Imagine how outdated PS2 will be by then!

Being technically inferior doesn't automatically mean you're going to lose - just look at the success of the IBM PC!

[Jose]

AGA has the best TV output I've seen on any PC. People don't get this cause they use compositte, but use an RGB connection and you'll see the difference, it's completely sharp without color bluring.

Advantages?! Well, I'm not an enginneer but if it can be updated like some of you guys mentioned so be it!! This is why I think it'd be worthy:
AAA would maintain the scena alive, and allow some functions like the so much appreciated screen dragging function.
Also it comes to a point where the hardware already does almost everything you need.

I can see the other point of view, but will the scene continue without those hardware banging cool copper lists,  that some coders like so much ?

[downix]

Have you ever actually designed chips?  10 million to design a chipset, are you kidding?  Any engineer worth his mettle can make re-usable modular components that can be re-implimented in 6 months to a new process and gain the full performance improvement.  Even the initial design wouldn't cost beyond $400k unless you're being robbed blind.

Not saying Amiga should, but saying that it is possible and there are advantages to it that are more than off-set, including being able to branch out into new markets, thereby growing the Amiga community.

[Atheist]

Hi downix,

How about re-programable EEprom, or FPGA, or what I'm trying to get at is, aren't there chips you can "flash" information to , that can emulate custom chips? I believe, if they exist, they are slower, but 2 or four in a multi-processor array? On a PCI card, of course.

Amiga! True flexibility is the source of it's power!

[bloodline]

Hmmm, Having thought about this for a while, I thought I might chip in my personal solution;

Buy the right to use an existing GPU, Nvidia Geforce or ATI radeon (it doesn't really matter which).

Then design you own board, this is important, as you need to select a powerful DSP and give it access to the GPU's registers, also give the DSP some memory of it's own (2Meg anyone?). In that memory map an emulation of the AGA registers. Now let the DSP run an AGA Emulation controling the GPU.
This way you have full access to the modern GPU, but also all the features of AGA in hardware (which can be updated via a FlashROM on the card).

Other than the Copper (which I miss), I'm not really sure what features of AGA are usefull in a modern world. The DSP's main function would be very similar to the Copper in the AGA chipset.

[jj]

I thought the whole problem was down to the fact that the designs for the AGA chipset had been lost and would have to reverse engineer the chip.

This is why no one has come out with a AGA solution for the new A1 or for the pc

[downix]

Actually AAA allows just such an arrangement.  Remember, modern 3D gfx chips, as a rule, do *not* output to the screen.  They need an intermediate, called a RAMDAC, to do this.  AAA could act as this RAMDAC, allowing new functions and ability to be inserted *into* the final framebuffer.

Just a small note of possibilities with alternative arrangements with AAA.  Could even make a 3D-only chip, allowing for good specialization, rather than the 3D/2D split-mode chips availible today.  Then when you don't need 3D, turn the chip off for maximum power savings.

[downix]

@JJ
Untrue, I can name 4 people with access to the designs.  I can even name 2 with access to the AAA and Hombre designs.  The issue is IP rights to these designs, and Amiga's unwillingness to license them to 3rd parties.