DVD not a good solution

[restore2003]

Is DVD cd`s a bad successor for the VHS? They dont have a very long lifetime, and if the cd`s get scratches, they could be ruined.

It has happened sometimes when i rented a movie, the cd was unplayable, due to scratches.

And if you go to a used DVD`s shop, many of their cd`s is ruined.

I mean, the DVD plate is not protected like the VHS.
I always thought the minidisc would be developed further to contain the same amount of space as a DVD, it would be a much smarter and more safe format to use.

What`s your opinion on this matter?
Is DVD`s only a short term sollution to get rid of VHS?
Is there a technology better suited for storing movies?

[that_punk_guy]

There are 3" DVD discs that could conceivably have been housed in minidisc style cartridges, but it's too late now since the format has become established and will probably dominate home cinema for at least the rest of the decade.*

As far as physical vulnerabilities, VHS has its own since the physical contact causes wear and can transfer dirt and grime between tapes and so on. I think DVDs are much easier to take care of, as long as the owner is prepared to look after them. Unfortunately some people are just irresponsible. I've never had a problem with a scratched DVD, but I buy all my films new.

(* But don't quote me on that. ;-))

[Dan]

We should all been using 3,5" MO-discs for all storage needs today, if the future of the late 80s had come true.

Minidisc is a 2,5" MO-disc but I don´t think you will  be able to fit 5GB+ on one in the near future. They just reached 1GB with the recent HiMD, which can be used as masstorage with USB.

What is 3,5" MO on these days 2,6GB doublesided?
And 5,25" MO is at 5,2GB?

MO-discs is the storageformat used by the swedish national archive.

The pushing of the unprotected DVD was because of the same reason that TVs and cars gets their first hiccups a couple of months after the warranty

Anyway DVD is not for datastorage, who uses it for backup for example? The easiest way to backup a HD is to another HD!
And the professional users uses other ways to backup their data such as weird tape and custom discs with much greater storage capacity.
And for portable flashcards is the thing.

DVD is the same compromise the VHS was. Just a bit better picture. :-)

[KennyR]

What makes you think VHS are so sturdy themselves? Many tapes I borrowed were dirty so you could hardly see a thing, or washed out because they've been used so much. And sometimes they twist or mangle or snap. Not to mention the fact that they slowly degrade even when you're not using them anyway.

And as for other magnetic storage like flopticals or hard drives, forget it. Too expensive. Maybe in 2020 when the manufacture gets cheaper (if we don't get an energy crisis). Same goes for flash.

DVD happened to be the only affordable and suitable technology around that fitted what they wanted - medium res compressed digital. They could have put the same stuff on a magnetic tape and sold that, even, but really, magnetic tape is on its way out.

[Dan]

KennyR wrote:
And as for other magnetic storage like flopticals or hard drives, forget it. Too expensive. Maybe in 2020 when the manufacture gets cheaper (if we don't get an energy crisis). Same goes for flash.

Of course MO is expensive, it´s those economies of scale that Peg and A1 users is so fond of mentioning.
As for flash the price keeps falling all the time, 1GB cards are affordable now.
Remmeber a CD-ROM costed 5000? when I first got into computers. Same with 15" TFT monitors or 1GB flash.
If nobody goes for it and builds a big production-line cost isn´t going to fall. The only MO that is being pushed is the minidisc at the moment.

*************
flopticals- been years since i seen that, the 21MB weirdo that was backwards compatible with normal floppys, almost as rare as the IBM 4MB floppy or the PD-RW which was a phasechange something? which could read CDs but only burn 650MB PD-dics and was introduced as a cheaper(500?) alternative when the CD-R hit the 1000? mark:lol:
****************

DVD happened to be the only affordable and suitable technology around that fitted what they wanted - medium res compressed digital. They could have put the same stuff on a magnetic tape and sold that, even, but really, magnetic tape is on its way out.

There was 5,2GB MO before DVD, but I guess the moviecompanies wanted something with copy protection.

Of course if the technical specs was the only thing that counted we would be talking about VHS but Betamax :-P

[Dan]

KennyR wrote:
What makes you think VHS are so sturdy themselves? Many tapes I borrowed were dirty so you could hardly see a thing, or washed out because they've been used so much. And sometimes they twist or mangle or snap. Not to mention the fact that they slowly degrade even when you're not using them anyway.

Not to mention what old videoplayers in need of service does to them. FFWD STOP kachunk PLAY almost cut the tape in half.
Why don´t people just throw away old craplike that

[KennyR]

Dan wrote:
Of course MO is expensive, it´s those economies of scale that Peg and A1 users is so fond of mentioning.

It's more than economy of scale. A DVD is just a polycarbonate disc with some vinyl sprayed on it. Once you buy a burning machine, they cost almost nothing to produce in massive numbers. HDs and flopticals have moving parts, electronics, quality assurance tests, etc...

[Dan]

KennyR wrote:
They could have put the same stuff on a magnetic tape and sold that, even, but really, magnetic tape is on its way out.

Anyone remmeber the DCC,the computer DV-player for a 3,5 inch bay that could also be used as backupdrive for your computer, DAT, C64-audiotapes, or this http://www.amiga-hardware.com/videobackup.html apparently you can store 200 fishdisks on VHS tape.

Of course DVD is just a stop on the road i-Tunes Store is the future( or some p2p program if you are on the dark side of the force:-))
"Hometapeing is killing music!"

[Dan]

Whats the moving parts in a MagnetOptical disc?:-?

HDs and flash sure it´s more expensive and complex.

Aarrgh stop calling it Floptical it was the stupid 21MB thingy on Next-machines

[Dandy]

Dan wrote:
...
Not to mention what old videoplayers in need of service does to them. FFWD STOP kachunk PLAY almost cut the tape in half.

If you run the engine of your car without oil it will get destroyed.
The same is for playing video tapes in a maschine that's in need of service.
Give the maschine the service it requires and play your videotape *AFTERWARDS* and it will be O.K....

Dan wrote:
Why don´t people just throw away old craplike that

Because this would be the most stupid thing they could do, IMO.

Already forgotten the whole DRM/Longhorn/Copyright thing?

The intention of the industry for promoting and pushing the digital storage medias (CD-R, DVD) certainly was *NOT* to benefit the customers with better audio/video quality (that's only a side effect), but to make lots of money.

And they want to achieve this by killing analogue storage techniques and their markets, while they *BUY* (or blackmail) politicians/governments to change the existing copyright laws to their own advantage.

So today any *PRIVATE* digital copy of a (digitally protected) source is illigal here in Europe. Only good, old analogue copies are still legal *for private use*.

So if one prefers to go the legal path he has eigther to buy everything legally (but no one would buy e.g. an audio CD twice - one for everyday usage and one as a "backup"), or he has to make analogue copies.

It is no longer legal to buy e.g. an audio CD (for usage at home) and to make a digital copy of it for usage in your car.
 :-o
If you want to hear this particular piece of music *LEGALLY* in your car as well, you currently have no other choice than to dust off your old tapedeck and make an "old fashioned" magnetical tape copy for your car.
 :-o
The only reason why the industry pushed and still pushes the digital storage techniques is the fact that they think they can better control/prevent the copying (what always had annoyed them since recording was invented) and so rise the sales and earn more money instead "loosing" it by "piracy copies" (industry wording).
 :pissed:
Only digital storage techniques offer possibilities to implement copy protection mechanisms - this is *NOT* (economically) possibel with analogue storage techniques!

The only way to protect a venyl record against unauthorized copying would be to pull a chain through the hole in the middle and to lock it with a padlock!
 :-D

So you see:
Throwing away your old (analogue) "crap" would be the most stupid thing you could do!

Better would be if you could afford it to buy one of the latest tapedecks and videorecorders - they mostly are top quality and really inexpensive nowadays!

(Altough I own an DVD player in the meantime, I bought me an new stereo VHS VCR as well as an upper class Nakamichi tape deck and a Thorens turntable for my venyl collection shortly for relative little money...)

From the customers point of view the whole DRM/Longhorn/Copyright thingie just is kind of modern robber-knighthood!
 :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:

[mikeymike]

So you see:
Throwing away your old (analogue) "crap" would be the most stupid thing you could do!

Or you could just make sensible, researched choices into what digital hardware you buy?

Boycott makers of copy-protected CDs?

[whabang]

So today any *PRIVATE* digital copy of a (digitally protected) source is illigal here in Europe. Only good, old analogue copies are still legal *for private use*.

So if one prefers to go the legal path he has eigther to buy everything legally (but no one would buy e.g. an audio CD twice - one for everyday usage and one as a "backup"), or he has to make analogue copies.

It is no longer legal to buy e.g. an audio CD (for usage at home) and to make a digital copy of it for usage in your car.

Eh? It's not illegal here in Sweden, and I'm pretty sure we're not alone about that.

A copy is a copy, regardless of the media used.

[whabang]

mikeymike wrote:

So you see:
Throwing away your old (analogue) "crap" would be the most stupid thing you could do!

Or you could just make sensible, researched choices into what digital hardware you buy?

Boycott makers of copy-protected CDs?

Or buy a magic marker! :-D

[Dandy]

mikeymike wrote:

So you see:
Throwing away your old (analogue) "crap" would be the most stupid thing you could do!

Or you could just make sensible, researched choices into what digital hardware you buy?

Boycott makers of copy-protected CDs?

Unfortunately you can't see it on the cover of a CD if it is copy-protected or not.
You have to buy it first and then you can try to copy it - or how can you know it's protected?

As to buying digital hardware:
Everything "digital" includes the possibility of copy protection measures - analogue "crap" doesn't.
Every digital copy of protected content is illegal - every analogue copy is *NOT* illegal!

And lets be honest:
The quality of analogue recordings with the latest analogue devices is not so bad - depending on the equipment it's not far away from digital recordings and had been sufficiant for the most of us all the years until digital devices came up!

We should not let the industry drive us to shut the door for legal copies ourselves!

If we now stopped buying analogue devices, their production would be stopped in consequence and then, when the last recorder "died", there will be only *ILLEGAL* (private) copies...

[Dan]

Dandy wrote:

Dan wrote:
...
Not to mention what old videoplayers in need of service does to them. FFWD STOP kachunk PLAY almost cut the tape in half.

If you run the engine of your car without oil it will get destroyed.
The same is for playing video tapes in a maschine that's in need of service.
Give the maschine the service it requires and play your videotape *AFTERWARDS* and it will be O.K....

Dan wrote:
Why don´t people just throw away old craplike that

Because this would be the most stupid thing they could do, IMO.

I meant throw it away and buy a new one! As for service thats not an economical alternative here in Sweden. It would cost you half the price off a new player in the "decent" class, just to have a repairman looking at it.
It´s a different thing for higher quality equipment.

Already forgotten the whole DRM/Longhorn/Copyright thing?

From the customers point of view the whole DRM/Longhorn/Copyright thingie just is kind of modern robber-knighthood!
 :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed:

I think I mentioned it

There was 5,2GB MO before DVD, but I guess the moviecompanies wanted something with copy protection.

As for those laws don´t worry they are going to be as unenforceable as the law against making your own liquor.
As long as you don´t sell it you are pretty safe.