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Offline RojTopic starter

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How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« on: August 31, 2004, 02:06:56 PM »
Have you ever tried to teach Amigas (or anything else, for that matter) to someone who has the god-awfullest hard time learning and remembering how to do things with a computer? Maybe it isn't the fact that they can't remember anything so much as they just won't remember, and are either afraid or reluctant to try anything that might reveal a "secret" as to how the thing works without receiving a 45-page description complete with arrows and captions about what a particular button or gadget will do before they get the nerve up to click it.

How do you guide someone from being terrified to click something because they're afraid they'll wipe their hard drive to someone who's able to figure things out on their own without recoiling every time they hit mouse button? Anyone have any tales to tell to boost my morale on the subject? Patience only goes so far. :-)
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Offline whabang

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2004, 02:16:49 PM »
Well,

I did learn my girlfriend how to load one disk games on the Amiga 600.
I'm still trying to convince her to learn how to use WinUAE.
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Offline RojTopic starter

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2004, 03:20:03 PM »
Once UAE is set up, that's where the problems start. Simple things like finding the amount of free space on hard drives, how much memory is available, or just remembering that there's a difference between the two can be a challenge.

One of the things that brings about lots of fun is when error requestors pop up. You know the kind: "Are you sure you want to delete ALL the files on drive DH0:?" and out of either confusion or obliviousness (I'm not sure which yet) the OK button gets clicked. Joy. I've got complete backups of the drives, so it's not a major ordeal. But I see requestors getting ignored, ("click the first button the mouse points to as quickly as possible and hope") both on Windows and the Amiga.

Is it normal to completely ignore the info the OS just popped in front of you, and then turn and ask a question that was answered by the requester that just got completely ignored?

This happens often.

How do you deal with this type of stuff and still keep your manly hairstyle? I'd really like to see this person become self-sufficient, but I'm not entirely sure how to get there. She's got the smarts for it, but there's like this fog-thing going on that has to be worked through.
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Offline Ilwrath

Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2004, 04:45:39 PM »
Quote
Is it normal to completely ignore the info the OS just popped in front of you, and then turn and ask a question that was answered by the requester that just got completely ignored?


Yes, people are very fond of this.  I used to get it all the time back in the dark days that I did level 1 support.  If I had a dollar for every time I worked someone up to the point that the error requestor came up and they closed it before reading it to me...  Well, I'd have made enough money it might have made the job worthwhile.... ;-)

Quote
How do you deal with this type of stuff and still keep your manly hairstyle? I'd really like to see this person become self-sufficient, but I'm not entirely sure how to get there. She's got the smarts for it, but there's like this fog-thing going on that has to be worked through.


Well, the thing to remember is that, indeed, the person IS smart.  It's not a brains thing, it's a background thing.  The person just isn't experienced and comfortable with computers.  There IS a fog to work through, and it's worse when you're there than when you aren't.  

You see, you and I both know we don't know everything about computers.  We make mistakes, too.  But the person you're working with is at such a knowledge level below ours that it appears like we've made a deal with the devil to have instant and omnipotent computer skills.  So, on top of being nervous about computers, your user is scared that she knows "nothing" in comparison to our "everything."  

The best way to get her to be more self-sufficient is to build her confidence.  In a work environment, we set up help teams of normal users that knew and could explain simple printer problems, Word formatting bugs, and other common office errors.  We originally did it because we didn't have enough time to keep fixing these completely simple problems.  But by having people who didn't know how to fix them work with people who barely knew how to fix them, everyone's confidence increased when they got it right.  See, the user who thought they knew "nothing" suddenly realizes that they know almost as much as the other users.  And the user who fixed the problem got the confidence of having a success story to share with everyone else about how he defeated the evil LaserJet 4 series paper mangler.  

So, I don't know if a story like this can really help you, but my advice is to work toward the confidence side of things much more than the technology side of things.  Because no matter how much technology you teach her, if she still has no confidence, it'll still look like "nothing" to your "everything" of knowledge.
 

Offline Holley

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2004, 05:24:19 PM »
lol, what he said.  In October I'm giving a course on Windows basic skills (just one step up from 'what is a double-click?').

Try to keep explanations short and to the point, but repeat often.  Best not to try to teach the person you live with :-D The more space between you the better, for both of you ...

Start with things like copying/moving files, using programs that the student can identify with, and work up gradually.
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Offline RojTopic starter

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2004, 07:46:54 AM »
@Holley

Well... the person happens to be my girlfriend. And despite my warnings and insistence that Amigas aren't for everyone, she's hungry to learn what she can. Unfortunately, her hunger isn't self-sustaining like mine was back when I knew nothing. When I'd get stuck, I'd dig in and wring the answer out. When she runs into trouble, she stops and won't go any further until I've written out 47 pages of notes with arrows and captions detailing what the next step is.

@Ilwrath

I think you've hit the nail on the head. I haven't done much in the way of building confidence. So far my approach has been 1) pump out information and instruction and 2) experience shock and horror when my elaborately presented information and instruction isn't immediately absorbed. That's where I can certainly do better.


In some ways, I think starting out with a system like my first A500, a system which had plenty of appeal at the time but didn't automate much of anything, and relied on floppies and user know-how to get anything done taught me that if I was going to get anywhere, I had to grab the bull by the horns and just dive in. Nowadays, with Windows being fully functional and productive right after installation, people don't have the same prerequisites. In a way that's good because people can focus more on the software they're using. But it's also not so good because when things go wrong, they're completely lost until the machine comes back from the shop.

Another simple problem that cropped up today was a misunderstanding that the location of a file on a hard drive determines the type of the file, what can load it and what can't. Saving a jpg in with other pagestream documents and then loading that jpg as a pagestream document can cause all kinds of funky stuff to happen. Windows is a little smarter about it than the Amiga is, but it still helps to have a grasp on what's really going on there.

So here's the question: do you think it's worthwhile to set up a completely out-of-the-box A500, show a few things that'll get the learning process started and let nature take its course? She wants to learn, and I think the things she's wanting to know aren't retained as well on a fully-configured system. I'm thinking if she uses a system that doesn't do anything Windows users (or halfway decently configured A4000 Tower users) take for granted, and makes some progress with it, she'll come away with a better understanding of what makes computers tick in general. Does this make any sense?

I'm afraid though that having used Windows as long as she has, she's kind of spoiled in what she expects computers to do for her, which is going to make it more difficult for her to grasp some of the pieces that'll put things in better perspective.
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Offline the_leander

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2004, 08:50:13 AM »
I actually started teaching my missus (then girfriend) on a CD32 with an 8Mb expansion and 2Gb hd. I taught her fundamentals of the workbench, how to use the shell, the various apps I used (Final Writer, Wordworth various games, how Miami worked, Aweb, AmIRC, YAM etc etc etc). For months I thought I was getting nowhere, until one day I was stuck on something stupidly trivial, and she came over and performed it without any prompting.

I also got her to setup a mac emulator for my A1200, which she did without too much hassle.

I gave her an A3000 for her birthday, she still has it but uses her PC more these days as the A3000's PSU has long since passed its sell by date.

Two things to note about my missus: She used Windows prior to us meeting up and could just about get around it. When going back to Windows from the Amiga, she found that a fair bit of what I'd taught her in AmigaOS (With Opus Magellen 2) could easily be used in windows. And Two:  Her confidence in trying to do things she wasn't sure of shot off the scale!

These days you can sit her at a completely foriegn OS (Say... Morphix - a linux distro) and within an hour or so she has a fundamental understanding of day to day operations and the confidence to look deeper if needs arise.

She still prefers windows, but will happily go on BeOS or Zeta (which are the other two OS's I have active atm) and use them like a pro.

Soooo, in short, do what you're doing now mate, although its a long slog, the long term benefits CANNOT be understated, I just feel sorry for the computer users of tomorrow, who will loose the valuable lessons we gained by using a truly barebones OS such as AmigaOS on low end Amigas.
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Offline whabang

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2004, 11:34:08 AM »
Quote
how he defeated the evil LaserJet 4 series paper mangler

GAAH! Don't mention it! It might hear you! :-D
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Offline Morley

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2004, 11:42:49 AM »
I remember when I first got my Amiga 500 after 5 years with a C=64, I didn't understand a sh*t...instead of a command prompt after powering up, I was presented with a hand holding up a disk :lol:

Later I found out how to start CLI, and the first thing I typed in was 10 PRINT "AUDUN ER KUL!" [ENTER]

That didn't work though :-D
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Offline whabang

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2004, 12:21:26 PM »
I bet it didn't take long before you typed say AEUH-DuhN ahR kEUWL instead, eh? :-)
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Offline Morley

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2004, 12:23:59 PM »
 ;-)
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Offline Doobrey

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2004, 12:58:50 AM »
I find nothing beats the good old cattle prod (or if you don`t have one , a modified camera flash gun with electrodes instead of a flash tube.) :evilgrin:

My parents are technophobes, they can`t set the video to record and won`t even try to,incase they break it by "pressing the wrong button"..
 
Then earlier this year, they started asking questions about computers,"What`s a processor?, is an 80GB hard drive fast enough?, Can it get the internet?"
..yup, like a nightmare unfolding , I knew what was to come..

Despite all my recommendations that they should get a Mac, they got a PC, which I now have to regularly cleanup and update,only one virus every couple of months :pissed:

I gotta hand it to my mum though, she`s learning pretty well, took some computer classes at a night school, buys books and magazines (of the "my first computer" type) and is getting more comfortable with it.
 She even does her grocery shopping online now, and managed to eventually file my dads tax return online, which was bloody amazing since the online forms bear absolutely no resembalance to the printed guide sheet they send you.

My dad on the other hand, gets more fustrated the longer he uses it, until he just gets so fed up he flips the power switch and walks away... I don`t blame him, it is WinXP :lol:
 He has this idea that cos it`s a computer, it can do anything, and that every company has a website that you can get just by typing their name into the address bar.

I guess it`s like every other learning experience, start off slow and get the basics right first, and make sure they`re not afraid/embarassed to ask questions, no matter how silly they seem.
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Offline iamaboringperson

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2004, 01:08:48 AM »
Bah, people are so annoying when they can't migrate from GUI, to another, performing similar tasks.

Tell you what ... here's the solution:


(scroll down)





























Pick up the computer, and throw it at them!

If they're that dumb, they don't deserve this modern convinence!
 

Offline jjans

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Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2004, 02:47:15 AM »
The best way I found to help my 92 year Grandfather learn was to give him a couple of ideas, show him how to do stuff, watch him do it, then turn him loose and walk away.

At first I had to reinstall his OS nearly every time I visited him, but he is improving at an amazing rate.
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Offline Ilwrath

Re: How do old dogs learn new tricks?
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2004, 05:44:41 AM »
Quote
In some ways, I think starting out with a system like my first A500, a system which had plenty of appeal at the time but didn't automate much of anything, and relied on floppies and user know-how to get anything done taught me that if I was going to get anywhere, I had to grab the bull by the horns and just dive in.


In that respect, we certainly had it easier, I think.  We've had years to get down the basics, before the layers of abstraction started piling up to the point where it's darn near impossible to figure out what actually IS going on beyond the mysterious monitor.

I look to my little brother-in-law as an example of the problem.  Back when I was his age (13) the C64 was the "in" machine.  So all the cool stuff was right there.  If you wanted to do any of it, you HAD to have at least a basic understanding of how the machine functioned.  (You have a disk, and on that disk is an application and some data.  You turn on the computer, you LOAD the application, you OPEN the data file, etc...)  There were more steps required to do what you wanted, but the steps were very closely related to what you wanted to do.  So it kind of built a intuition into us about what is going on behind the scenes of a computer.

But today, the Windows PC is the "in" computer.  Today's cool games, applications, and files are all there.  But to run it all, you just point at the data file you want and tap the button twice.  The file opens.  Sure, it's easier.  But you don't comprehend what really happened.  You're too far abstracted from what's going on.  In two clicks you just caused a comparison of the data file's filetype extension to a database of known filetypes.  That comparison identified which application is registered to handle that type of file.  It then launched that application and passed it the filename of the data file as an argument.  

That's abstraction WAY beyond the scope of what a 13 year-old can deal with, though.  How do you teach the basics to someone when they've never been exposed to the intuitive difference between loading an application and opening a data file?

I mean, sure, I can give him a C64 or an A500, but it's not the "in" computer of the time.  He might play with it, but he's not going to USE it for everything, like we did.  There's no better way to learn a system than to be forced to use it.  I learned my C64 because it was all I had, back then.  The Amiga was the same thing (I sold all my C64 gear to afford my A500!).  Windows, again, forced to use it -- this time for my first job.  Linux: I didn't learn it, until I made a bet that I could go an entire month without booting Windows at home.  Sure enough, by the end of that month, I knew quite a lot about Linux (and more about modern x86 architecture, as a side benefit).  

But how DO you pass the basic knowledge and intuitive "feel" for what a computer does to someone who wants to learn it?  I think that is part of what you were getting at with the idea of giving her a base A500.  Certainly using one of those is much less abstracted.

But it's not very practical to try to USE a C64 or even an Amiga for modern computing.  I mean, they are pretty dated systems that are not quite up to many modern tasks we take for granted.  Your typical MP3 isn't exactly going to fit on an 880k floppy, ya know?  Wanna check the Yahoo! mail?  Hmm......  Problems...  So, the machine isn't really going to get USED.

But how do you teach the basics to someone who hasn't been forced to live within their confines?  That's a question that I don't know the answer to...  If I did, I'd probably sell that information as a help series, or something.  ;-)