Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Rethinking DDT  (Read 2389 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline T_BoneTopic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2002
  • Posts: 5124
    • Show only replies by T_Bone
    • http://www.amiga.org/userinfo.php?uid=1961
Rethinking DDT
« on: August 17, 2004, 03:23:58 AM »
this space for rent
 

Offline KennyR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 8081
    • Show only replies by KennyR
    • http://wrongpla.net
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2004, 03:52:38 AM »
Oh man...these anti-environment and far-right freaks will try to sell you any bullshiy to get a profitable product back on the market. Dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane is dead in the developed world and good riddance. Let it rest in peace. (Which it will do, in the soil and your adipose tissues, for some decades yet. Cancer, anyone?)

What kind of moron doesn't believe the four decades of scientific evidence that piled up against DDT? Even for years while they were using it people had their doubts - birds breaking their own eggs sitting on them, dying fish, deformed frogs, shellfish all changing sex, and of course alarmingly high levels of the stuff in the fat of higher animals - us for one. It's an organochloride for Christ's sake - they're all nasty {bleep}s. A lot of good people campaigned a long time and accrued a lot of solid evidence to get that stuff banned. More than they should have done: industry did its best to discredit them for years. That was a disgrace and the banning of DDT was a victory for science and justice.

I'm trained as an analytical chemist and from everyone I hear from in the field, DDT is the classic persistent pollutant. You can find it in EVERY water sample WORLDWIDE, and thanks to its nonpolar nature, loves to dissolve in the fat cells of animals. As an organochloride its a carcinogenic (I don't care what these {bleep}ers say), a toxin, and an environmental disaster waiting to happen.

Diseases killing millions of children? Nothing compared to the disaster of letting this stuff build up in your water table. Then it'll be killing hundreds of millions. If diseases are so bad then discover a better pesticide - preferably one that doesn't hang around for decades and turn people into cancer waiting to happen.

And the worst part of it all is, not only will you be poisoning yourselves and your own animals, you'll be doing it to us too. Which is the equivalent of us conducting nuclear tests 10 miles off the US eastern seaboard. I can see the EU starting a trade war to keep DDT off the market, if the US is ever retarded enough to bring it back.

"Only two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein.
 

Offline KennyR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 8081
    • Show only replies by KennyR
    • http://wrongpla.net
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2004, 05:46:03 AM »
And anyone who doubts that should look at the situation around the fast-shrinking Aral Sea in Asia. This sea has shrunk due to agricultural and water use. What has also happened is that the pesticides and herbicides used for thousands of square miles around have concentrated in this sea.

The Aral Sea now has a cancer rate up to 5 times the average in the former USSR, thanks to these chemicals. This includes DDT, but also includes many of the same family less powerful than DDT. So much for 'junk science' claims. This guy should be arrested and jailed for putting people's lives and livelihoods in danger by spreading such lies, thats how pissed off I am about his claims, and those of people like him. They are the Holocaust Deniers of environmental science, and I strongly suspect they're doing it only for potential profit. Sickening.
 

Offline T_BoneTopic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2002
  • Posts: 5124
    • Show only replies by T_Bone
    • http://www.amiga.org/userinfo.php?uid=1961
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2004, 09:08:42 AM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:
And anyone who doubts that should look at the situation around the fast-shrinking Aral Sea in Asia. This sea has shrunk due to agricultural and water use. What has also happened is that the pesticides and herbicides used for thousands of square miles around have concentrated in this sea.


(That article didn't mention DDT)

They [pesticides] were already heavilly concentrated here, the pesticides were used in concentrations (not considering the shrinking and concentration of the basin) up to 50 times what even the Soviet Union considered acceptable.

This area would be a disaster even without DDT, but hypothetically, even if DDT weren't banned, it should never have been used in the concentrations it has been in this area.

As a matter of fact, DDT was never supposed to be used agriculturally AT ALL, but it's use as part of a disease controll strategy is priceless.

Quote
The Aral Sea now has a cancer rate up to 5 times the average in the former USSR, thanks to these chemicals.


You mean thanks to the mismanagement of these, and many other chemicals, specifically in this region. The chemicals themselves didn't cause this problem. Idiots did.

Quote
So much for 'junk science' claims. This guy should be arrested and jailed for putting people's lives and livelihoods in danger by spreading such lies, thats how pissed off I am about his claims, and those of people like him. They are the Holocaust Deniers of environmental science, and I strongly suspect they're doing it only for potential profit. Sickening.


Everything he's said is spot on. The west has used a product to improve their own lives, accepting the risk to the world as worth the benefits to themselves, but Africa can go screw? I don't know what profits could be made off of DDT, it's rather cheap compared to other solutions, and can be generically produced, as opposed to most products nowdays, especially when concerning agriculture.
this space for rent
 

Offline PMC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2003
  • Posts: 2616
    • Show only replies by PMC
    • http://www.b3ta.com
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2004, 11:17:04 AM »
If you believe that you'll believe anything...

For thirty two years DDT has been sold around the third world despite the fact it's banned in the west.  This is a great excuse to justify selling the stuff to third world farmers.

Meanwhile, oil companies won't blink at selling leaded fuel to the third world, along with tobacco companies advertising heavily there too.

It's disgusting that all the crap that's no longer good for us in the west is shipped abroad where less stringent environmental regulations are exploited.

Executives of "Acme Carcinogens Inc" get fat on profit while the rest of the world can go screw.  How do these arseholes sleep at night?
Cecilia for President
 

Offline redrumloa

  • Original Omega User
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 10126
    • Show only replies by redrumloa
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2004, 12:31:36 PM »
Interesting! I grew up being taught DDT was evil. There is no hard science behind these claims?
Someone has to state the obvious and that someone is me!
 

Offline KennyR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 8081
    • Show only replies by KennyR
    • http://wrongpla.net
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2004, 04:58:12 PM »
@T_Bone

The Aral Sea comparison was to show that pesticides (yes, most of those are related to DDT), do cause cancer. Carcinogenics don't need a certain dose to have an effect (unlike toxicity), they'll raise cancer rates even at the slightest levels. And the thing about DDT is, once its in your body, you won't get rid of it without a crash diet. Its use anywhere is simply unacceptable.
 

Offline KennyR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 8081
    • Show only replies by KennyR
    • http://wrongpla.net
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2004, 04:59:42 PM »
Don't get too complacent, Red - these guys just want to sell DDT to the third world. The only junk science is from industry (yet {bleep}ing again).
 

Offline PMC

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: May 2003
  • Posts: 2616
    • Show only replies by PMC
    • http://www.b3ta.com
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2004, 05:35:42 PM »
They don't give a {bleep}.

Back in the 1920's Du Pont actually lobbied oil companies to adopt lead additives as valve lubricant and an octane enhancer.  The additives themselves were Du Pont patented and thus earned them a substantial royalty.  Meanwhile automobile engines were engineered to run better on leaded fuel.  A win-win situation you might think.

Du Pont chemical plants soon became known for horrifying cases of lead poisoning amongst the workforce.  

It took many years for scientific evidence suggesting a link between cases of lead poisoning and leaded fuel, which was constantly refuted by Du Pont and numerous oil companies.  Eventually, they bowed to pressure and lead free fuel was introduced containing....  Wait for this....  Benzine.  

Meanwhile, way back in the 1920's several chemical firms concluded that an acceptable petrol additive could be formulated from Methanol, both improving the combustion of fuel and not having an adverse effect on valve life.  Their rival additives lost out to the combined might of Du Pont and General Motors.

However, the story doesn't end there...  Leaded fuel is still extensively used in third world countries where Du Pont earns a royalty on every litre sold.
Cecilia for President
 

Offline T_BoneTopic starter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2002
  • Posts: 5124
    • Show only replies by T_Bone
    • http://www.amiga.org/userinfo.php?uid=1961
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2004, 11:19:13 PM »
In other news,

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128165,00.html

Blasted Xoops parser!

...and 100 things you should know about DDT

http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm

(Somewhere KennyR is banging his head against the wall ;-))

"Now, even the New York Times has seen the light, running a pro-DDT editorial on Dec. 23, 2002 ("Fighting Malaria with DDT), a pro-DDT op-ed column on Aug. 7, 2003 (Is there a place for DDT?") and, most recently, a pro-DDT New York Times Magazine article on April 11, 2004. ("What the World Needs Now is DDT").

Dr. Edwards lived long enough to see the New York Times do a "180" on DDT. It's too bad he didn't live long enough to see a more meaningful payoff for his persistence, namely successful malaria control and eradication — and millions of lives saved. It will be up to the rest of us to fulfill Dr. Edwards' legacy."
this space for rent
 

Offline iamaboringperson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Jun 2002
  • Posts: 5744
    • Show only replies by iamaboringperson
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2004, 02:46:54 AM »
 

Offline KennyR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 8081
    • Show only replies by KennyR
    • http://wrongpla.net
Re: Rethinking DDT
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2004, 02:49:44 AM »
Erm, this junkscience article is full of scientific errors. It seems to be fulfilling its namesake. How can this site pretend to be fighting in the corner of science when it is full of such gaping holes?

For example:

Quote
Gas chromatography detected DDT in samples of wildlife and soil collected before DDT was even produced.


Which is, frankly, bollocks. Organochlorides are xenobiotic - they are not found in nature. The only real way they can be produced non-synthetically is by the burning of organic matter with a lot of salt (sodium chloride). They are not produced by any plant or animal, to my knowledge. They are alien to life chemistry, partly why they are so effective at killing it.

Quote
Human ingestion of DDT was estimated to average about 0.0026 milligrams per kilogram of body weight per day (mg/kg/day) about 0.18 milligrams per day.

In 1967, the daily average intake of DDT by 20 men with high occupational exposure was estimated to be 17.5 to 18 mg/man per day, as compared with an average of 0.04 mg/man per day for the general population.


Yes, but two vital facts these fail to tell you are that:

a) DDT intake is cumulative (it is not broken up by the body or excreted, and accumulates as DDT and DDE in fatty tissues. Over time the poisoning can become chronic. The body cannot excrete it because none of its metabolites are polar, and so cannot be extracted by the kidneys.

b) DDT and DDE are endocrine disruptors even at very low levels, like most organohalides. This means it can cause diseases not related to itself. For instance, cancers associated with hormone imbalance. Such poisoning likely takes time, and so tests on lab animals with huge doses of DDT are worthless. Note how there is not one test mentioned where small cumulative doses are given over a period of years or even decades.

Quote
"Even after 20 years of follow-up, exposure to relatively high concentrations of DDE or PCBs showed no evidence of contributing to an increased risk of breast cancer."


The article listed is old. PCBs are now known to be carcinogenic and if burned can form dioxin, an even more lethal compound found in agent orange. If a farmer burns his leftover crops containing DDT, chances are he'll produce dioxin. Dioxins are among the most lethal compounds known to man and are teratogenic, mutagenic, carcinogenic, and very toxic.

Summary: the junkscience article is a very one sided review that lists only one side of the difficulties in DDT use. It has zero scientific value, and I can only assume so does the whole site. Junk science indeed.

*clonk*

(The sound of my cranium hitting some masonry.)