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Offline KennyRTopic starter

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Calculating the distance between stars
« on: July 21, 2004, 04:18:07 AM »
That's what I wanna do. I know a star's location in the sky by its altitude and azimuth at any point in time, and I can look up the distance from our Sun to them in the same way.

But what I want to do is compare two stars and calculate the distance between them, non-relative to Earth. I've tried using everything I know about maths, which is a lot, but apparently not enough. Google isn't helping either; the internet has a few formulae, but the only ones I could find measure the distance in radians of arc, which are only useful relative to Earth. I want the distance in parsecs or light years. If I could convert radians of arc to light years I'd be happy, but I can't.

Sperical trigonometry isn't one of the things I had to learn as a chemist (phew), so has any mathematician or astronomer or astrophysisist out there got an easy formula or method?
 

Offline Cyberus

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2004, 10:37:34 AM »
Quote

KennyR wrote:
That's what I wanna do. I know a star's location in the sky by its altitude and azimuth at any point in time, and I can look up the distance from our Sun to them in the same way.

But what I want to do is compare two stars and calculate the distance between them, non-relative to Earth. I've tried using everything I know about maths, which is a lot, but apparently not enough. Google isn't helping either; the internet has a few formulae, but the only ones I could find measure the distance in radians of arc, which are only useful relative to Earth. I want the distance in parsecs or light years. If I could convert radians of arc to light years I'd be happy, but I can't.

Sperical trigonometry isn't one of the things I had to learn as a chemist (phew), so has any mathematician or astronomer or astrophysisist out there got an easy formula or method?


I'll get back to you with an answer. I studied Astophysics for my BSc, and you know, I can't bloody remember!
Perhaps you can use the Parallax method to determine the distance to each star. And then with the altitude and azimuth angles, work out the distance between them?

I'll have a think about it, and get back to you later, that's if Blobrana doesn't beat me to it :-)
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Offline PMC

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2004, 10:48:18 AM »
Quote

Cyberus wrote:

I'll have a think about it, and get back to you later, that's if Blobrana doesn't beat me to it :-)


If you're really lucky, maybe she'll write you a poem about it too?

;-)
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Offline Cymric

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2004, 11:16:51 AM »
Not being hindered by any knowledge on astronomy whatsoever (well, not a lot ;-)), isn't this just a problem of converting the spherical coordinates (altitude, azimuth, distance) to Cartesian ones and then applying Pythagoras' theorem? In fact, I'm sure that if I haul out my textbook on differential geometry I could apply Pythagoras directly to the spherical coordinates, but since that involves some messy mathematics with Jacobians and what-not, I prefer to use the workaround I understand.

In other words, assuming a right-handed (x, y, z)-coordinate system, with f the angle {P_x}{O}{P_y} (= azimuth), g the angle {P}{O}{P_z} (= 90 degrees minus altitude), and r the distance to the Sun, with P the position of the star in space, and a subscript indicating its projection on either one of the three coordinate axes, my math lecture notes state that

   P_x = r cos(f) sin(g)
   P_y = r sin(f) cos(g)
   P_z = r cos(g)

Of course these formulas do not take into account the lattitude of the observer, nor the tilt of Earth's axis, nor the angle of the ecliptic. But somehow, I feel that those will simply fall out of the equation if azimuth and altitude are given relative to the constant observer's location: of course the absolute distance between stars should not depend  on the position of the observer on Earth. Continuing, therefore, the position of the second star R is given b y a similar set of equations, resulting in a distance D of

    D^2 = (r cos(f) sin(g) - r' cos(f') sin(g'))^2 + (r sin(f) cos(g) - r' sin(f') cos(g'))^2 + (r cos(g) - r' cos(g'))^2

Of course the above is more or less an educated guess, so take it with a pinch of salt, and try to obtain verification from people who did astronomy rather than chemical engineering ;-).

Edit: corrected the angle for the altitude.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2004, 12:41:12 PM »
Thinking about it, this is probably exactly the same solution as cymric's, but if you can express the distance from your point of reference (taken as the origin) to each star as a point vector (you can convert between spherical coordinates to 3D vector coordinates relatively easily), the distance between the two stars is simply the magnitude of the vector you get between them.

distance = sqrt((P1x-P2x)^2 + (P1y-P2y)^2 + (P1z-P2z)^2);

where P1 and P2 are the position vectors (eg unit light year or whatever you are working with) relative to you at the origin.

These in turn can be evaluated by their known distances from earth and their angular coordinates (r,theta,phi (or whatever it is))...
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Offline blobrana

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2004, 12:55:23 PM »
Hum,
To figure it roughly don't bother with Spherical trigonometry,
Just use standard 2d coordinates with Pythagoras theorem...

You need to know the distances of the two stars from the earth, and since that is a very rough estimate then that cuts down on the overall errors...


Perhaps if you imagine the one stars eclipsing the other star then it’s a simple case of subtracting one distance from another...

As you separate the two stars just use Pythagoras theorem (2d not even 3d coordinates) to work out the distance...
[Draw a line through both stars, it doesn’t matter the about alt or dec sime there is no up in space, and no one can hear you scream...]

Offline Karlos

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2004, 01:02:45 PM »
Actually, and I don't know why this didnt occur before, but yeah, blobrana is right about not strictly needing 3D maths :-D

Since you have only 3 points, the two stars and your point of reference, any 3 distinct points always lie in a plane, reducing the problem to a 2D one.

If you know their distances from you, and the direct angle subtended between them (from your position), you can calculate the distance between them using basic triangle geometry (you know 2 lengths and the angle between them, calculating the third length should be trivial).
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Offline blobrana

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2004, 01:18:31 PM »
Hum,
but if you do want to mess up you head with Cartesian coordinates (you still need to convert the earth observed stars into an angle) check this



 :-)

Offline Cyberus

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2004, 01:25:11 PM »
Would it not be easier to use sine rule rather than pythagoras?
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Offline blobrana

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2004, 02:09:41 PM »
Hum,
yes, its better, but i find right-angles easier to work out in my head...
from those stellar distances you can really use the base angle to be almost 90 degrees...


The `right angle` is the same distance away as the closest star....

The `opposte` length is star2 - star1(closest)
So it`s a simple case to work out the hypotenuse

See!





























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Offline Cymric

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2004, 02:23:10 PM »
Yeah, okay, granted, you can reduce the 3D problem to a 2D one. But I think it doesn't solve anything, as you now are faced with the problem of calculating the angle subtended between the two stars, as it does not trivially follow from the two angles associated with each star's position. (Try it for yourself.) Look at it this way: three distinct points indeed lie in a plane, and it is trivial to construct the equation for that plane provided the coordinates are Cartesian. Unfortunately, the are not, they are spherical. Things are much more complex when you try to do it with them buggers. I have a strong hunch that if you come up with a formula to compute the required subtended angle, and then used 2D-Pythagoras or the sine rule, you'd be doing exactly the same amount of work as I did, but via a tricky and not really necessary 3D->2D transformation.

Things are of course completely different if you get the subtended angle as a function of time straight from the beginning. But that is not what Kenny gave us to work with.
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Offline Cymric

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2004, 02:29:57 PM »
Quote
blobrana wrote:
from those stellar distances you can really use the base angle to be almost 90 degrees...

Which angle is almost 90 degrees? Say you're dealing with Alcor and Mizar (the famous double in the tail of the Great Bear), I cannot make out any angle close to this value. Could you please explain?
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2004, 02:33:55 PM »
Isn't it easier just to say:

"Really really far, even on horseback..."

:-D

Offline blobrana

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2004, 02:54:01 PM »
Hum,
OK, (to use the sine method)
Here’s an example of the blue and red stars of Orion...

Betelgeuse RA:   5h55m00.00s   DE:+07°00'00.0"

RIGEL RA:   5h10m00.00s   DE:-08°00'00.0"

And remembering that 24h = 360º, 1h = 15º etc...

[The angle from the earth is about 18 degrees]
remember that 15 degrees = 1 hour

So 45minutes difference in the RA of the two stars = 45/60 x 15 = 11 degrees (thats one side)

The DEC is -8 - 7 = 15 degrees (the other side)

11sqr=121  15sqr=225   121+225=346 srqroot = 18.6degrees....


We have the angle!

Now all we need are the distances in light years to the two stars...



@Cymric
(to use the rough method)
the angle of the base line....(adjacent) the rightangle is the same distance from the earth as the first star...

the differance between alcor and mizar is a few seconds......the base line, in this case,would be so small  as to be forgotten about...(unless they were very close together)in which case

Offline KennyRTopic starter

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Re: Calculating the distance between stars
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2004, 05:59:23 PM »
Thanks for your replies. It seems to me that working out the cartesian coords first and then doing pythagoras on them, like Cymric said, would be the best way to do it. At least, it would be the most accurate way. I'm not convinced that 2D math is any good on a sphere.

But...! Why don't we all test our theories? Blobrana gave us two stars, with coordinates:

Betelgeuse RA: 5h55m00.00s DE:+07°00'00.0"

RIGEL RA: 5h10m00.00s DE:-08°00'00.0"

Betelgeuse is 650 ly from Earth, Rigel is 1400 ly. Now, what is the distance between them?