Latest G4's running at 1.43Hhz

[MarkTime]

@Rogue,

And one other thing!

I don't pull any punches with my criticism, but I hope you will understand my perspective, because it didn't come from no where, it is how things look to me, and maybe some other people too, who knows....

The fact is when you say things like 'I can't give information cause someone didn't like everything I said.'  or....why should I post cause Seehund might have his own opinions...

it doesn't make you sound like a rock solid stable personality that will always be there when someone needs support.

It sounds like to me like yet another of this communities very sensitive personalities...in this community, monthly, some website is shutdown a-la 'amibench' or another person shuts down development, a-la Bernd Myer... when someone gets their feelings hurt.

Quite frankly, I can't pay $380 for support, knowing that if someone sends you an e-mail later that 'hurts your feelings'...that all support will disappear.

These other people aren't you.....but you sure sound like them to me with your comments!

This is not an attack on you, this is my perceptions...if they are wrong, feel free to correct them....but post information or don't post it, but don't sway in the wind because criticism comes your way.

my 2 cents...ok maybe 1 cent.

[Ami603]

@MarkTime:
Your opinion has to be respected,but please,this $380 stuff needs some FACTS and some searching on the net and contacting the people involved can easily get you wrong.

If Apple tries to compete with Windows they're dead.

thats the kind of mindset that killed amiga and IS killing Apple.
ignoreing the fact that as a home computer by definition Apples/PC compete with one another...and ignoreing the fact that if apple had cheaper hardware they might sway more users to their platform due to the OS.

as is only zealots and a handful of professionals buy macs... they could be mass marketed if they where not so expensive and proprietary and slow... its to bad apple wont wake up to the fact that by definition they are 'competeing' because they are in the 'home computer market' and under this idea of 'omg we cant compete with windows' they have gone from nearly 11% to 3% in a few short years.\


the idea you have strobe it would seem is.

keep hardware obselete,slow and proprietary

keep the OS good but limit it to this obselete, slow, priprietary hardware,

keep the prices so high we can barely sell units to the few zealots left standing.



that sure sounds like a winner...

[AmigaMac]

thats the kind of mindset that killed amiga and IS killing Apple.
ignoreing the fact that as a home computer by definition Apples/PC compete with one another...and ignoreing the fact that if apple had cheaper hardware they might sway more users to their platform due to the OS.

Oh another death knell in regards to Apple from mips... there isn't anything killing Apple!  They're still selling 3-4 million computers a year regardless of how their marketshare looks compared to others, which marketshare itself is not the only important ingredient for relevancy, installed userbase is another, which Apple has a grand share of 11.6% of all computers installed worldwide (supposedly).  Take into account that out of 200+ million people in the US, only about 60+ million actually have a computer of some type (it being an Amiga, PC, Mac and etc...) and Apple's userbase accounts for nearly 30 million Mac users worldwide!

Apple will always be a niche and that will never change because it's not in their business model to be just another company like Dell or Gateway!

as is only zealots and a handful of professionals buy macs... they could be mass marketed if they where not so expensive and proprietary and slow... its to bad apple wont wake up to the fact that by definition they are 'competeing' because they are in the 'home computer market' and under this idea of 'omg we cant compete with windows' they have gone from nearly 11% to 3% in a few short years.\

Only zealots huh?!  Yeah the usual word for the people who don't follow the masses in buying decisions and/or conform to the norm!  I guess you can count Amiga and Linux users in that claim, which at the end of the day no one really gives a rats arse!!

keep hardware obselete,slow and proprietary

keep the OS good but limit it to this obselete, slow, priprietary hardware,

keep the prices so high we can barely sell units to the few zealots left standing.

Oh yeah, where was you when PCs were slower than Macs and just about everything else out there, you obviously wasn't preaching the same tune back then, but rather had some other ideology/argument why PCs were somehow better than the rest!

that sure sounds like a winner...

Well it seems to work very well for Apple!

[Tigger]

Oh another death knell in regards to Apple from mips... there isn't anything killing Apple!  They're still selling 3-4 million computers a year regardless of how their marketshare looks compared to others, which marketshare itself is not the only important ingredient for relevancy, installed userbase is another, which Apple has a grand share of (11.6% of all computers installed worldwide, supposedly).  Take into account that out of 200+ million people in the US, only about 60+ million actually have a computer of sometime type (it being an Amiga, PC, Mac and etc...) and Apple's userbase accounts for nearly 30 million Mac users worldwide!

Just  a few facts to help quiet your pro-apple rant.  First of all noone who knows how to do simple math really believes that Apple is over 11% of the market.   The man who claimed that in the article late last year, also claimed that Apple is the #1 computer manufacturer.   Now for the real facts.   Apple sells about 3 million computers a year, total worldwide sales of PCs (including apple) was about 120 million last year (apple is about 2.5 % of the market).   Last year Dell sold more computers every quarter then Apple sold for the whole year (2 other companies did that as well).   Dell last year sold more x86 computers then the entire number of PowerPC computers made by Apple over the last 6 years.    See how 11% is getting to seem pretty far fetched???    In fact if you say that only the last 2 years of x86 boxes are still being used, and the last 6 years of macs are all in use you get less then 1/2 the mythical 11%.   Add all the power macs ever made (including clones) and you still dont get 11% if you just count the last 2 years of x86 boxes against them.
      -Tig
     

[AmigaMac]

Tigger how convenient... I knew you would be in here soon enough!

Let me shed some light on your supposed know it all tales that turn out to be just that, tales!

In regards to our past debate on Pixar and Sun Microsystems and what Pixar was actually using in-house:

Pixar switches from Sun to Intel

Enjoy the article!

 :-D

As for the marketshare versus installed userbase... those 2 numbers don't go hand in hand!

Let's do simple math:

the first year:

Company A sells 90 computers
Company B sells 10 computers
 
...this results in 100 computers sold in total!

Company A has 90% of the marketshare and installed userbase!

the next year:

Company A sells 10 computers
Company B sells 90 computers

...this results in another 100 computers sold in total to equal 200 in the past 2 years!

Company A has 90% of the marketshare and breaks the installed userbase to 50% between it and company B since now they have 200 computers installed to the actual market overall in use!

Now that was the simple of it!  Unfortunately for Dell, it hasn't been around as long as Apple, also Windows PCs have not held their value as long as Macs since Windows didn't start to lead over DOS until after Windows 3.1, while Macs were already being used and like my own Mac SE/30 (1989), is still usable today!  There's probably more Macs from the late 80s in use than DOS PCs of the same era!

Of course it's hard to gauge how many computers that have been sold in the last 20 years are still in use, it's more of a guessing game and lots of research!

That's where marketshare percentage becomes obsolete because it can't erase the numbers of past sales and the installed userbase that has been put in place.  On top of all that, marketshare shifts from quarter to quarter and year to year.  We saw Apple's marketshare rise last quarter (for the US alone) to about 3.7% (maybe 3.9%).  These numbers will always change, HP is #1 currently with Dell at #2 and with Legend out of China making inroads, there could be more competition on the way!

[MarkTime]

@Ami603,

I intend to make the difference 'real' by using an actual value, because otherwise we get into grey areas where marketer's say things that some construe as lies while others can say might not be intentional lies...they say things like 'slight price difference but you get more support'

I intend to remove the vagaries by giving actual values.  I am using the actual situation that I face, if I pre-order, as an american, today.  My amiga dealer, softhut === G4/XE 800Mhz Eyetech, is $879.00, if I order G4/XE 800Mhz Terrasoft, $499.00

The actual price difference on a pre-order is $380.
You say I e-mail someone I'll get different stories??? I believe you, this is the real price if I pre-order today.  Rather than get an e-mail from someone, and then I call them a liar later... I will just stick with actual prices...the OS4 premium, for me, in my area, is $380.00

AS other people have posted, we have seen some worse than that, some better.  And I am sure the gaps will change in the future, and as I do, my number of $380 will change...but I intend to talk about real numbers and not vagaries...

Even though, I agree, by placing out a real number its validity can always be challenged, and it puts me at risk as far as my reputation....but I'll take that chance, because, frankly, I think its more important to put out a real number.

by the way, I know I can talk endlessly sometimes...I thought you made a good point....as soon as this stuff is shipping, I'll try to think of a better way to compare prices...and the number will probably not be 380, and at a guess, it will be less of a gap, not more....

I have not had my A1200 for a few years...I look forward to buying real amgia or amiga like hardware soon....

[Ami603]

@MarkTime:
Please,check this $499 price again on terrasoft webpage.

[Tigger]

AmigaMac wrote:
Tigger how convenient... I knew you would be in here soon enough!

Been on vacation in southeast asia the last 3 weeks, so no posting here.

In regards to our past debate on Pixar and Sun Microsystems and what Pixar was actually using in-house:

Enjoy the article!

That article pretty much agreed with what I posted before I believe, at Siggraph we were told that they were going intel and that there was no version 10 of Renderman for Sun, it basically says that here as well, saying they replaced the suns with intel servers over the last 6 months, and as we saw before Pixar no longer lists Sun as a supported platform for Renderman as of the last version.
 

As for the marketshare versus installed userbase... those 2 numbers don't go hand in hand!

Now that was the simple of it!  Unfortunately for Dell, it hasn't been around as long as Apple, also Windows PCs have not held their value as long as Macs since Windows didn't start to lead over DOS until after Windows 3.1, while Macs were already being used and like my own Mac SE/30 (1989), is still usable today!  There's probably more Macs from the late 80s in use than DOS PCs of the same era!

Of course it's hard to gauge how many computers that have been sold in the last 20 years are still in use, it's more of a guessing game and lots of research!

That's where marketshare percentage becomes obsolete because it can't erase the numbers of past sales and the installed userbase that has been put in place.  On top of all that, marketshare shifts from quarter to quarter and year to year.  We saw Apple's marketshare rise last quarter (for the US alone) to about 3.7% (maybe 3.9%).  These numbers will always change, HP is #1 currently with Dell at #2 and with Legend out of China making inroads, there could be more competition on the way!

Its great you like you Mac SE/30.   But understand that if we just take the last two years of x86 boxes and EVERY SINGLE PPC mac every built as a UNIQUE user (obviously not true, lots have owned 2 or 3 Power Macs) and all still be used (obviously not true) then we are less then 1/2 way to the quoted 11.5%.   There are lots and lots and lots of pre-jan 2001 x86 boxes out there, being used every day.   Lots more then there are pre PPC macs being used by someone that doesnt have a newer computer.  Every amiga still in use, reduces mac marketshare, every ST etc, I dont see any way to crunch the numbers and get mac to double digits.
        -Tig

[AmigaMac]

Its great you like you Mac SE/30.   But understand that if we just take the last two years of x86 boxes and EVERY SINGLE PPC mac every built as a UNIQUE user (obviously not true, lots have owned 2 or 3 Power Macs) and all still be used (obviously not true) then we are less then 1/2 way to the quoted 11.5%.   There are lots and lots and lots of pre-jan 2001 x86 boxes out there, being used every day.   Lots more then there are pre PPC macs being used by someone that doesnt have a newer computer.  Every amiga still in use, reduces mac marketshare, every ST etc, I dont see any way to crunch the numbers and get mac to double digits.

I really don't use that thing... I actually acquired it (in the summer of 2000 actually) from a friend's whose wife got it for free from a US Government office she worked at.  It also came with an old Apple Laser Printer and works quite well and was well maintained.  It has an old version of Microsoft Office on it and Netscape as a web browser and some other various software on it.  I guess it could be the last resort if my other computers go bust (even my old PC)!

As for marketshare... I really don't care how much Apple has or hasn't got!  I think most Mac users would rather be the small portion so that our computing can remain untainted by the exact problems Microsoft is dealing with now in regards to hackers and other such problems they have to deal with.  I don't think Apple is in the position to handle those kinds of issues currently.  I guess at the end of the day, as long as Apple sells enough computers to remain relevant and keep going year to year, let the other guys fight over the rest of the computing landscape!  Steve Jobs might have a different opinion than me, but oh well, that's my opinion on the subject!

an article with some insight:

Apple Has Always Been a Significant Player

Pretty much the raw truth on Apple and their niche market:

Apple Has Always Been a Niche Player

 :-D

Apple's significance doesn't come from their market share, which peaked at just over 20% in 1984 and has never been higher than 12% since then. According to Jeremy Reimer's Personal Computer Market Share: 1975-2002, it's under 3% today.

Apple's significance doesn't come from their market share, which peaked at just over 20% in 1984

20% of the 'overall' market maybe...but in desktop space... pre-amiga... the Apple2 hit big... really big...

[strobe]

I use Macs because they save me time and therefore money. I don't have a problem with the hardware choices since I stopped using desktop Macs. Apple's portables are excellent

People who want a Mac will buy a Mac. If Apple tries to support every crappy PC board they'll have a support nightmare and no hardware profits. A sure recipe for disaster.

Not to mention Mac developers would have a support nightmare and would likely drop Apple altogether and jump to Windows.

I think apple should keep their hardware prorietary...but when their buying apps like Shake out... its difficult for them to market an inferior slower architecture and then a high-end killer app like Shake...
if they switched to say X86-64 or Itanium... they would be alot more appealing... I'd probably buy one... even though the cost would be higher... It'd be a nice stable OS...and decent well supported hardware..

I dont care that much what CPU i'm running on as long as its fast and reliable... I'd like to see apple move to a faster chip ... it would bring them into bieng viable as workstations.

[AmigaMac]

mips,

If you notice in Apple's latest price change, I think they're trying to head down that avenue where their computers become more affordable.  But you know and I know that if they dropped the prices too rapidly, people will be wondering why and probably be really angry.  I figure they'll slowly creep down the price range with every new release this year, which with their profit margins being great already, it shouldn't hurt their bottomline at the end of the day!

Only time will tell though!!

[iamaboringperson]

strobe wrote:
I use Macs because they save me time and therefore money. I don't have a problem with the hardware choices since I stopped using desktop Macs. Apple's portables are excellent

People who want a Mac will buy a Mac. If Apple tries to support every crappy PC board they'll have a support nightmare and no hardware profits. A sure recipe for disaster.

Not to mention Mac developers would have a support nightmare and would likely drop Apple altogether and jump to Windows.

true! people buy their computer for all sorts of reasons, not just because it has a cpu that is the fastest in a whole bunch of tests

i know mac owners who prefer them for many reasons, good reasons, i do not consider them zelots

i have an ibm-pc machine, but it doesnt matter how new it is, they are flawed, dated architecture, they have many problems, many bottlenecks

i hope to see more people support other architectures, & other cpus such as ppc, sparc, mips, x86-64, itanium
(well not x86-64 so much)

it would be good if everybody would move away from that old architecture, that would allow cpu's to get so much faster, machines would be quicker, & easier to configure etc...

i hate legacy technology - move away from it
hell, ive starting to do away with floppies!
i hope USB/firewire will replace parlel/serial ports
etc...

[iamaboringperson]

if they switched to say X86-64 or Itanium... they would be alot more appealing... I'd probably buy one... even though the cost would be higher... It'd be a nice stable OS...and decent well supported hardware..

I dont care that much what CPU i'm running on as long as its fast and reliable... I'd like to see apple move to a faster chip ... it would bring them into bieng viable as workstations.

so what about PowerPC 970?
whats wrong with that?