natami

[commodorejohn]

Wouldn't be the first time you assumed a bunch off garbage and started foaming at the mouth.

That's very nice. Would you care to enlighten me on what your line of thinking actually was? I'm all ears.

[Arkhan]

haha this thread rules.

[desiv]

It's not an emulator in any normal sense of that word.

Really?

em·u·late

   [v. em-yuh-leyt; adj. em-yuh-lit]  Show IPA verb, em·u·lat·ed, em·u·lat·ing,  adjective  
verb (used with object) 1. to try to equal or excel; imitate with effort to equal or surpass: to emulate one's father as a concert violinist.

2. to rival with some degree of success: Some smaller cities now emulate the major capitals in their cultural offerings.

3. Computers . a. to imitate (a particular computer system) by using a software system, often including a microprogram or another computer that enables it to do the same work, run the same programs, etc., as the first.

b. to replace (software) with hardware to perform the same task.


----------------------------

The only argument might be whether or not the programming in an FPGA is a software system.

As I said before, it's semantics, but I think "any normal sense" is seriously stretching it...

As the technology is (IMHO) changing faster than the definitions, I think some freedom in interpreting them should be allowed.

It used to be much simpler before FPGAs.  But now with programming FPGAs, you make them behave like other chips.  Which sounds a LOT like what emulation is.

Maybe what we have now is similar to programming languages, a separation between interpreted emulation and compiled emulation.. ;-)

From a purely technical definition, it might not be an emulator.
But from the generic definition of the word, I think it still fits..

Even EETimes considers FPGAs a type of emulator.
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4081462/Viewpoint-Standard-FPGA-based-emulation-will-prevail

So even among the serious techs, it's not as clear cut as it used to be.

desiv

[matthey]

Does the Apollo project have licenses for all the patents it's going to be using?

Building an open source CPU is one thing, selling it is something else altogether.  If they make any money they can expect to be contacted by lawyers demanding money.

OTOH this is probably the least of their worries...

"It is only a nice story when Gunnar tells that we had a conversation with the ColdFire/M68k Division Manager of freescale. That we asked him if a custom made MC68060 with higher speed than the classic ones could be available. When he declined we got on asking if we could at least get/license some source HDL code to use in an FPGA. He told us that the MC68060 is built in some kind of HDL source. He regrets but it is absolutely not possible to get/see/license this code for anybody in any form. The only thing he could do is to provide us contacts to companies who sell 68k IP cores. Freescale itself doesn't do this, it is not their business. Then Gunnar asked him what might happen if we wrote our own IP. He said that Freescale will not have a problem with that and that, in his opinion, we do not need any permission from Freescale even if we are about to sell it. But we can not expect any technical help or support from Freescale when we decide to do so.
 
  This is just a story which happened some time ago. We do not need prove or evidence of that. This only (sadly) shows that this is the end of the road for the 68k. The business of this division of Freescale is to sell competitive embedded ColdFire chips, not software. These chips *must* not compete with faster PowerPC which is a different division at Freescale. As said, in the real world they would only sue us for money, not for fun. It would be money if we decide to sell 68k compatible chips running at 600MHz at a price of 1,5$ per piece. Then the discussion here might be justified. But it is not because we won't because we can't.
 
  I just wonder why AMD is still selling x86 compatible CPUs. Ah, right, I forgot. They use a completely different opcode than intel.
 
  Meaning that it might be worth continuing this discussion. Since we AND Freescale are not really involved because both do not have a problem with this topic I would emphasize to discuss whether an opcode is copyrightable or patentable in talk, not as an NatAmi question. For now Freescale does not have any interest in high-speed 68k. The moment this changes we are the first to get a 2GHz 68k dual core and just drop the softcore '50 (sorry Gunnar/Jens) and get the chip mounted onto a SyncZorro card. But immediately."  -Thomas Hirsch

It usually takes big teams of experienced engineers years to build something like this.  I don't ever like to say never but I'm going to break that tradition by saying I predict the Apollo project will never finish a design of this complexity.

Gunnar and Jens are "experienced engineers" that work for IBM as their day jobs. Most of the programming of the pipelined superscaler integer CPU, caches and memory controller is done. A FPU and simple SIMD unit are probable at some point. It can always be updated as it's fpga. It's not that far beyond the core used in the fpgaArcade which already performs better than many of the fpga cores on the market.

Even if they could do it - what possible reason is there for anyone to pay for it?
This thing is going to require a big, hot and expensive FPGA.  All so you run stuff slower than a $1 ARM.

It's interesting as a technical project I'm sure, but the rest strikes me as wishful thinking.

A large fpga does not run hot. The main disadvantage of the fpga over a real "chip" is speed, and limited shifting and multiplying ability. The advantages of the fpga are cheaper in low quantities and the ability to customize and update what's in them. Some fpga customers find the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. It's simplest and cheapest to put everything in 1 fpga with their custom logic. Some customers may go ASIC later and want a full featured CPU while others want the minimal CPU for the smallest possible fpga, memory and price. The 68k/Apollo has the advantage of being easy to program (many embedded systems do not use an OS) and very good code density (better than ARM with Thumb 2). ARM also relies on shifting a lot (improves code density) so is not well suited for an fpga. The 68k/Apollo relies on sign extending (for code density improvement) which is easier for an fpga. The Apollo core has outperformed the NIOS and PowerPC 440 in most of IBM's tests. IBM could burn or use their own processor "chips" but even they have a use for fpga processors.

[Kronos]

  I just wonder why AMD is still selling x86 compatible CPUs. Ah, right, I forgot. They use a completely different opcode than intel.

Or maybe because they had a licence to do so....

[Hattig]

Natami is a monumental waste of time. Nerd trophy at best, monument to the square wheel at worst.

Time enjoyed being wasted is not time wasted.

Maybe Thomas was not enjoying his Natami time any longer due to the pressures from everyone else.

[vox]

That lets me out. That kind of pricing will severely limit their sales potential across the board.

OK, but Mikes board which is multi emul. machine, but as Amiga is 020 28Mhz and ordinary AGA is 350 euros. Minimig which is up to 28Mhz 68 000 is nearly 200 euros with ARM or more.

In the terms of competition, Natami seems to be right priced.

If you expected high end classic to be less, just check how much are hardware 060 50Mhz boards for Classics.

[Nostalgiac]

neither wanna put these efforts down or praise them, cold facts only, all the best to the makers... but.. last week got an ivy bridge 3770K +asus mb + 16mb + 120gb OCZ and case etc... for £600... other then what I kinda need for work/hobby.. UAE with my custom 3.9 install sky-rockets on this setup :/

Tom UK

ps: after my half-hearted idea last year... i really need to think about selling my A hardware.... any early takers ? see sig

[vox]

neither wanna put these efforts down or praise them, cold facts only, all the best to the makers... but.. last week got an ivy bridge 3770K +asus mb + 16mb + 120gb OCZ and case etc... for £600... other then what I kinda need for work/hobby.. UAE with my custom 3.9 install sky-rockets on this setup :/

Tom UK

ps: after my half-hearted idea last year... i really need to think about selling my A hardware.... any early takers ? see sig

You are quite aware no one can`t compare to cheap x86 hardware made in huge quantities in China? And you do know, this time next year it will be 300 euros worth and year after about 100.

UAE with custom OS 3.9 would skyrock on much less e.g. my AMD  2Ghz and 2GB fast RAM.

[persia]

UAE flies on my MacPro and I'm running it on Windows 7 Virtual Machine in Fusion.

[AAACHIPSET]

read  about the  downsizing  slowing  of the natami project ..guess  shouldnt be surprized  ..but  still disappointed  ..
anyway  while  checkin  ebay i came across  a very old  card  for a pc  that turns it into a 3DO ..always  wanted a 3DO but not  at $811.00  usa  dollars
made  me  think  why isnt  someone  turning there attension  to a similiar
card for amiga ...i know there  was  a project at some  time  but it never got
finished  ...whatever  new  amiga  in whatever form we buy it  will still need
drives  monitors  etc  ...just a thought...opinions?