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Offline kedawa

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #14 from previous page: February 25, 2013, 09:56:10 PM »
Actually, web apps running on firefoxOS can supposedly do things just as fast as iOS/Android native apps, and on much cheaper hardware.
Whether they actually deliver on that is another matter, but this isn't an OS for high end smart phones.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2013, 10:01:21 PM »
I don't really know enough about performance on Android/iOS systems to say for sure, but I seriously doubt that. Running an interpreted language (even if they have a fast JIT,) an interpreted library framework, and a full HTML5 parsing/rendering engine instead of native code and a dedicated GUI toolkit/window manager and getting better performance on worse hardware? Was it programmed by Jesus?
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 12:03:42 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;727529
Well, first let me point out that I said Javascript (and HTML5) are crap for application development. As tools for enhancing webpages, they're a bit janky but ultimately usable (well, JS is, HTML5 still sucks,) but people keep trying to push them outside the environment for which they were intended.

As for HTML5, it sucks because it's an attempt to turn something that was never, ever meant for application development into an application-development framework. HTML was never intended for this. Standards zealots spent the entire '90s screaming at people about how HTML was supposed to be for organizing information, not doing layout or apps. It wasn't meant for layout, it wasn't meant for UI, it was meant for creating documents that link to other documents.


XHTML won't go away, you will still be able to use XHTML 1.0 Strict (or XML of course) to format and structure your information in the purest way and use it in combination with CSS to create layouts for various media, it will work in the future as it works today.

When it comes to document creation and structuring information, HTML 5 brings some content-specific additions, like
,
,
,
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline TheBilgeRat

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 01:12:51 AM »
I just hate javascript.  I'm not going to defend my dislike with any real concrete things, as language hate is a very personal thing.  Some people probably hate python, but I am not one.  Far be it from me to tell them they are wrong in hating it.

But, yeah.  Javascript sucks. :D
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 01:16:39 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;727565
XHTML won't go away, you will still be able to use XHTML 1.0 Strict (or XML of course) to format and structure your information in the purest way and use it in combination with CSS to create layouts for various media, it will work in the future as it works today.
I never said that it wouldn't.

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When it comes to document creation and structuring information, HTML 5 brings some content-specific additions, like
,
,
,
And that stuff is pretty reasonable, if maybe a little over-specific.

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But beyond that, HTML 5 brings lots of improvements for exactly what you moan about here – application development! Local data storage, Local file access, Local SQL database, Application cache (much enhanced speed and offline usage), Javascript workers, and of course XHTMLHttpRequest 2 is all brought to the table with application development in mind, and in combination with the canvas, inline SVG, WebGL, the new media tags and CSS3 it will mean a great revitalization of the "AJAX" concept and there is no doubt you will see a "version 2.0" of "Web 2.0" in a near future! ;)
Yes, I know that HTML5 adds features intended for application development. My point wasn't that it didn't have features to support it, my point was that adding features to support it is a fundamentally misguided and stupid idea because HTML was never intended to be an application platform in the first place. It's like putting weapons hard-points on a tricycle - if you're doing it, you obviously don't understand what a tricycle is for, and you're just going to bog the thing down for its intended purposes.

HTML is never going to be a good application platform because it was never intended to be an application platform at all, and because you can pick any two browsers (or many combinations of versions of the same browser, even) and your site will not look or work the same across both. And adding features intended for application development is going to make it much easier to create terrible, terrible webpages. Handing over things like local file access to J. Random Web  Developer is madness from a security standpoint (how long before  we have ad scripts that deposit links to client websites on your  desktop? We're certainly going to need canvas-blocker plugins in the  near future.)

Oh, and what does "Web 2.0" mean this month? Has it stopped being a vague, meaningless buzzword yet and started referring to any specific thing?

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I think you vastly underestimate the importance of the possibilities  with HTML5/JS/CSS3 as well as the demand for "Web 2.0" kind of  applications. The possibilities are enormous and is just about to get  better by a magnitude.
I think you vastly over-estimate it. There is essentially nothing that can be done with HTML5 that wasn't already done with Flash, and people stopped wanting Flash applications sometime around ten years ago, when they realized that browser-based applications are obnoxious, slow, and practically never fill a need that there isn't perfectly decent native software for. That should be a lesson, but the people behind HTML5 aren't interested in lessons; learning lessons would require acknowledging that someone might know more than them about something.

"The possibilities are enormous?" Well, that's arguably true - but it's never been about possibilities, it's been about results. You can use an application made with HTML5/JS, but it's only going to be as fast as your browser allows, and only going to have as coherent a UI as the quality of your browser's rendering engine and the constraints of building a graphical user interface out of webpage elements will allow. Alternatively, you could just find native software that does what you want, which will be far better able to harness the power of your system, and which may even have a GUI designed by someone who knows about more than how to finagle CSS into rendering consistently across a few of the most mainstream browsers. Gee, I wonder which is the better option.

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I will follow these kind of developments with great interest, although I think it's a bit misleading to speak of "Web OS" when all there is to it is what the user look and feel, the UI, etc (and not the underlying OS). But OTOH, this is the only important thing to 99.9% of the users. As a user you never see any low level stuff. You can't see a driver, you can't see a file system. The users may experience the *results* from stuff like that being present, but they will do it through the UI, which I guess will be handled by HTML5/CSS3 empowered AJAX.
I can't see the wind, either, but I can sure as hell feel its effects. Javascript is a crappy language for application-scale development, replete with design choices that encourage bugs, bloat, and plain old bad coding. It's also an interpreted language, which is and will always be slower than native code. HTML5 is loaded down with features that should never have been introduced to the standard, heavier than its predecessor (which was no lightweight to begin with.) The combined overhead of all this is going to have a noticeable effect on performance, especially on mobile hardware, and even an ordinary user can sure as hell tell when the computer is being slow.

And an ordinary user can definitely tell the difference between a UI created with a proper UI toolkit and a UI cobbled together out of HTML and CSS elements, if nothing else.

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Many possibilities with this IMHO, and I have seen many demos and examples that has convinced me that not only is it possible, but it may actually be quite good.
Again, possibilities are meaningless. Given sufficient memory and horsepower, anything is possible in any Turing-complete language. You could write full-fledged applications in INTERCAL, too, but that wouldn't make it a good idea. And even assuming that the results were good (which would require all of the following: an efficient Javascript JIT, an efficient, strongly standards-compliant page rendering engine, and a developer who can create solid, efficient, low-bug software in a language prone to none of the above - and only the last factor is even something that the developer can control,) it would still never be any better than what native software can achieve.

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(BTW, there are some links in this first post you can take a look at! :))
Yes, there certainly are. And every single one of them would've been done better with either native software or ordinary HTML4. There's a lesson in there, somewhere.
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Offline bbond007

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2013, 01:39:10 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;727547
I don't really know enough about performance on Android/iOS systems to say for sure, but I seriously doubt that. Running an interpreted language (even if they have a fast JIT,) an interpreted library framework, and a full HTML5 parsing/rendering engine instead of native code and a dedicated GUI toolkit/window manager and getting better performance on worse hardware? Was it programmed by Jesus?


Having played with Android SDK/NDK, I can say that probably JIT is not the issue with the performance but the garbage collector. If you were to code in such a way to avoid relying on the GC then I think you'd get similar performance to compiled c with the added advantage that when a new CPU architecture comes along, you don't have to recompile with optimizations for that CPU.

Anything has to be better than flash as far as performance.

I do hate HTML based programs vs a proper GUI toolkit. Makes applications have about as much consistency as DOS.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2013, 02:00:17 AM »
Quote from: bbond007;727570
Having played with Android SDK/NDK, I can say  that probably JIT is not the issue with the performance but the garbage  collector. If you were to code in such a way to avoid relying on the GC  then I think you'd get similar performance to compiled c with the added  advantage that when a new CPU architecture comes along, you don't have  to recompile with optimizations for that CPU.
Javascript has a garbage-collector? I think you're thinking of Java.

Quote from: bbond007;727570
Anything has to be better than flash as far as performance.
That might be true if it weren't for the fact that Javascript performance is a constantly moving baseline. Browser X makes its JIT faster and then everybody starts coding their JS apps with Browser X in mind because hey, screw anybody who's not using the very latest software! (Bonus no-points for adding a nag-box whining at users of old or less mainstream browsers to upgrade to Browser X so that they can get the absolute best experience out of this crappy site as possible.) Then Browser Y pulls ahead and the same thing happens, and so on and so forth.

And hence, even though Flash is notoriously balky and inefficient, I can still get full-screen playback of Flash cartoons or games on my Core 2 Duo, but because I'm using an older version of Firefox with a slow JIT (since the aforementioned version-of-the-month club approach has left newer versions requiring something like a terabyte of RAM and a hyper-advanced CPU mail-ordered from Skynet via time-travel delivery service for smooth operation,) equivalent-complexity JS/HTML5 thingamajigs are still choke-and-die experiences for me. (And NoScript is even more necessary for a bearable web-browsing experience than it normally is.) Fun.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2013, 02:05:37 AM by commodorejohn »
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 02:31:16 AM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;727568
is a fundamentally misguided and stupid idea because HTML was never intended to be an application platform in the first place.


I think you still may be talking about XHTML; the puritan's response to the "dirty" first versions of HTML. I think you should look at this as a fork now. The XHTML 1.0/1.1 will live on (and even evolve), and the HTML5 is taking a slightly different direction, with measures to get there.


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you can pick any two browsers (or many combinations of versions of the same browser, even) and your site will not look or work the same across both.


True to some degree (was worse a few years ago), but the differences are rapidly decreasing, and so are the available browser engines. WebKit is the biggest one now, and lately Opera has opted to use WebKit instead of their in-house engine. Makes sense. Awareness about this is also high, so most developers tests with the whole flora of engines and takes whatever measures needed to make it work similar everywhere.

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There is essentially nothing that can be done with HTML5 that wasn't already done with Flash, and people stopped wanting Flash applications sometime around ten years ago, when they realized that browser-based applications are obnoxious, slow, and practically never fill a need that there isn't perfectly decent native software for.


Flash isn't slow on none-slow HW (and there are even HW accelerators). But Flash is on its way out anyway. Even Adobe knows that. In Flash CS6 they are taking steps to actually make it possible for you to create your Flash content as you use to within the flash authoring environment (with action script and all), but then render the final result as a HTML5/JS/CSS3 product instead of Flash. The Flash application becomes an authoring tool for multiple output formats. Which makes sense. There is a lot of competence around the world these days centered around this Flash application, the creation tool, and if they can create as before (but render HTML5/JS content instead of Flash), then they will have a hit! If you don't have access to Flash CS6, take a look at the videos on Adobes web page. To me this is the first sign of a Paradigm Shift in Flash. The first steps of many.


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"The possibilities are enormous?" Well, that's arguably true - but it's never been about possibilities, it's been about results. You can use an application made with HTML5/JS, but it's only going to be as fast as your browser allows


I actually don't think speed will be a problem.


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I can't see the wind, either, but I can sure as hell feel its effects. Javascript is a crappy language for application-scale development


You can do applications completely in JS (I agree there are challenges), but in some cases, JS will probably mostly be a part of the UI, the rest of the application, the *depths* of it, can be whatever. Wherever.

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It's also an interpreted language, which is and will always be slower than native code. HTML5 is loaded down with features that should never have been introduced to the standard, heavier than its predecessor (which was no lightweight to begin with.) The combined overhead of all this is going to have a noticeable effect on performance, especially on mobile hardware, and even an ordinary user can sure as hell tell when the computer is being slow.


There are accelerators and there are different ways of building an application. You can make it fast enough.

And ARM/mobile hardware isn't slow anymore. And they are rapidly getting even faster.


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And an ordinary user can definitely tell the difference between a UI created with a proper UI toolkit and a UI cobbled together out of HTML and CSS elements, if nothing else.


Will they in a year from now?

:?
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 03:01:45 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;727574
I think you still may be talking about XHTML; the puritan's response to the "dirty" first versions of HTML. I think you should look at this as a fork now. The XHTML 1.0/1.1 will live on (and even evolve), and the HTML5 is taking a slightly different direction, with measures to get there.
No, I'm talking about HTML, period. It was not intended for application development, ever. The only reason it's being pushed into that role now is because people kept insisting on perverting it into an application framework anyway.

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Awareness about this is also high, so most developers tests with the whole flora of engines and takes whatever measures needed to make it work similar everywhere.
No they don't. They test it with the absolute latest version of Chrome, Safari, Firefox, and maybe Opera and then put up nag boxes whining at you to use the absolute latest version of one of those if they detect anything else.

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Flash isn't slow on none-slow HW (and there are even HW accelerators).
Flash applications are slower than native applications, just as JS/HTML5 applications are slower than native applications.

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I actually don't think speed will be a problem.
It already is, and the way JS programmers code it's not likely to get better.

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You can do applications completely in JS (I agree there are challenges), but in some cases, JS will probably mostly be a part of the UI, the rest of the application, the *depths* of it, can be whatever. Wherever.
As in Firefox, where the "chrome" layer is JS-driven but the renderer isn't? Sure, you can do that. I don't think it's the best use of resources, but you can do that. But that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about JS/HTML5 applications, and more specifically, we were talking about Firefox OS, wherein JS/HTML5 is the official framework for all software. Possible other approaches are completely irrelevant in that discussion.

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There are accelerators and there are different ways of building an application. You can make it fast enough.

And ARM/mobile hardware isn't slow anymore. And they are rapidly getting even faster.
Supposing that's true (and if Firefox OS is focused on budget mobile hardware, I doubt it,) then what? You're blowing perfectly good hardware resources on getting decent performance out of a crap language and a bloated web framework.

And for Firefox OS, their competitors aren't. Android doesn't use HTML5 for its UI, and while it does use an interpreted language, it at least takes compiled bytecode binaries instead of raw source text (one less step it has to go through,) and uses a markedly less terrible language than Javascript. iOS doesn't use HTML5 for its UI either, and it even runs native-code applications with a language that's actually pretty good. FFOS is going to have a hard time measuring up to either.

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Will they in a year from now?
Given that, a year from now, UIs cobbled together from HTML and CSS elements will still be cobbled together from HTML and CSS elements? Yes they will.
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Offline persia

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Re: Firefox OS
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 03:05:08 AM »
Firefox is the RIM of browsers.  The sun is setting on Mozilla.  I suppose they want to go out in a blaze of glory, but that's up to them.  I see nothing wrong with iOS and Android...
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What we\'re witnessing is the sad, lonely crowing of that last, doomed cock.