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Author Topic: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?  (Read 12752 times)

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Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #59 from previous page: December 29, 2010, 11:08:35 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;602648


I imagine we would have found people 30 years ago complaining that the 2D graphics (of which the Amiga was the pinnacle) were overrated and took away from the true gaming of the text adventure.


Indeed we did, people were trying to tell us all of Infocom's text adventures were better than Magnetic Scrolls' adventures :)
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #60 on: December 29, 2010, 11:19:07 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;602648
I imagine we would have found people 30 years ago complaining that the 2D graphics (of which the Amiga was the pinnacle) were overrated and took away from the true gaming of the text adventure.


It's true I can recall when I had been used to playing plain text adventures on my old Vic20 then buying the C64 and people started to write text adventure with line draw GFX to jazz them up a bit, that I was in horror that there was no need for this as you imagination should be creating the images... :lol:
 

Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #61 on: December 29, 2010, 11:42:16 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;602649
AFAIK upgrading a 386 to pentium was not a simple drop in replacement of the CPU.  Indeed all the 386 PC's I'd seen-mainly HP- had the CPU soldered to the MB.  So I have doubts as to the cost of this upgrade being a cheap one as you imply.  Pentium PC's were $3000 plus at the time.  A lot of money, but PC users did pay it.
No I'm talking about the ever dropping price of PCs being a plus and a minus point. The plus point is you just sell your dodgy old 386SX 16 to some n00b and put it towards a 486-25 machine. And as my 4mb 486-25 only cost about £50 more than an A2000 68040 accelerator when you remove the price of the monitor it was actually cheaper anyway.

But people upgrading to a new faster PC could keep their old games and revisit them, A500 users buying an A1200 could play the same games at A500 speed with the same faults (like Lotus III for example) so where is the incentive to either accelerate your A2000/1500/500 or even buy a new A1200 until new cutting edge games to make your jaw drop appear? None :)



Quote from: stefcep2;602649
Lotus 3 ran fine on my Apollo 68040.  Blizzard 040's were RC units-recycled CPU's and I don't recall them being 500 pounds.  The 1260 boards were about 500 pounds .  You wouldn't buy a 68060 to run Lotus or Streetfighter to get a better frame rate.  You'd buy it to run a lot of serious apps.
The point is Lotus III ran dog slow on Amiga floppy machines (only CD32 Lotus III ran as fast as Lotus II) and was really frustrating to see. And the point there is that adding even a 68060 to your A2000 would not improve the speed of Lotus III BUT if you had a 286 and later bought a 486 your could dig out Lotus III and enjoy it with improved speed and hence playability. That was the point, you think Amiga mass market was people running serious software? I think not, it was to games players foremost.

And unlike when buying a new PC or an accelerator card for my ST the games wouldn't improve at all on Amiga except for stuff like Starglider/Flight Simulator II etc.

Quote from: stefcep2;602649
A 40/50 mhz 68030 is significantly quicker than a 68020, and AFAIR lets you use more RAM.  And the MMU did come in handy for emulation, and virtual memory (gigamem).
Doesn't matter 8mb+2mb was enough even up until Windows 95 and beyond PC era (1997-98?) for games programmers. The point was mhz for mhz the 030 was a poor choice. A 28mhz 020 cost about £100-125 less in 94/95 than a similar speed 030 board. And as 020 does nothing an 030 can't do as far as games programming goes it shows the proposed Amiga 1400 with 28mhz 020 and Fast ram and CD-ROM for £600 in 1994 was a much better buy than the overspeced and priced 4000/030 that was too damn slow for serious work and zorro+£1000 price too much for gamers to buy into.

This led to Amiga 3D games being produced based on A1200 spec (ie Nintendo Star Fox for SNES level if you are lucky!) compared to texture mapping routines on PC 3D games being experimented with.


Quote from: stefcep2;602649
OK so a faster CPU wasn't for you.
A faster CPU WAS for me and every gamer but not via brown boxes from unrecorded sales of mail order companies that Ocean et al would never see and hence never develop for. IT HAD TO BE VIA SALES OF SPECIFIC MODEL OF AMIGAs like the A1400 prototype.

It had to be in an affordable machine too and quickly, Commodore messed up badly by going for a crippled CD32 with no fast ram possible (unless you bought something that turned it into an A1200 for more than the cost of a damned CD-ROM drive for an actual A1200) instead of the A1400/A1800 prototypes. Both 28mhz 020 (so same speed as 25mhz 030 accelerators costing about 150 bucks) with fast and chip ram to maximise CPU speed and would be sold for £400 without CD and £500-600 with CD all in an Amiga 3000 style slimline case.

This never happened so we got the same old crap and games like TFX which were finished were never even released as sales of accelerator cards is not necessarily to games players and difficult to prove so games companies ignored them.


Quote from: stefcep2;602649
Amiga hardware did not depreciate anywhere near as quickly as PC hardware. The hardware always had better re-sale than a PC.  I upgraded to a Cobra 40 mhz 68030 for $299, used it for a 2 years, sold it for $250, then bought an Apollo 68040 for about $400.  Later added a CDROM, multiscan monitor.  And with each upgrade there was an immediate boost in performance and amount software that I could run.
Except unlike the 25% who were only interested in accelerating serious software I had no interest in owning an 040 based A1200 if Lotus III/Power Drift/SF2 were all going to be crap unlike our PC cousins who would see imrpovements in ALL game styles when they did upgrade.

And most people sold up around 1996ish or a year later, and my A4000/030 was worth just £175 back then so that's a load of crap too. Rare machines may be worth a lot now on ebay but that doesn't count.

Quote from: stefcep2;602649
What I do know is that the Amiga market was made up some of the biggest tight-arses I've ever met.  Buying an A1200?  Nah too expensive, rather run the old 1 meg A500 and complain why I can't run Doom.  Hard drives?  Too expensive, but I'll complain about why all the disk swapping.  Monitor?  Nah just use the TV. Workbench 3.1?  Nah 1.3 is OK.
 
The reason most people didn't buy an A1200 is because

1. Commodore didn't have a clue what they were doing and left out some pretty vital things like decent parallax/better sound/no HD floppy support/CPU crippled until you invest another £150 in a RAM board (where were the bloody SIMM slots!?).

2. The games still looked way to similar despite all the '32 bit power' hype. 3D games were barely improved unlike when we went from wireframe 3D on C64 to solid 3D on Amiga. 2D games STILL looked inferior to 1989/90 Megadrive AAA titles let alone the £150 SNES and it's superb 256 colour SF2 ports.

I did buy an A1200 but this was for my love of animation and digitiser work.

Quote from: stefcep2;602649
THERE IS NO WAY THAT YOU WOULD GET THE SAME LONGEVITY FROM A PC FOR THE SAME MONEY.  The software ( Windows, games and apps) would force you to upgrade the hardware to the tune of thousands, or you'd need to bin your PC.  This concept never caught on in the same way with Amiga users, so all we got was games that were made to run in 512k off two floppy drives.
Well it was Commodore's job to upgrade the CPU. 7mhz 68000 in A1000, 12mhz in A500 and 16mhz in A500+/A600. Without a faster CPU the thing that demanded more power from PC games was 3D games like Falcon or F15 etc.

A500/A500+/A600/A1000 owners had limited CPU accelerator options and games companies would never write games for accelerators costing more than an A500 anyway. Like I said if Commodore had upgrade the machines in an evolutionary fashion for the base model the games would have improved.

Only an idiot ran the latest version of Windows if at all, and anyway Win 95 onwards is where this is an issue and by then Commodore had been dead 2-3 years.

(ESCOM's crappy A1200 for £400 scam in 1995 was doomed to fail, it was an iffy price/performance in 1992 when launched let alone 1995!)

The point is gamers got bugger all benefit for 2D games on Amiga if they did invest in an accelerator, a thing which was only popular of base model Amiga's AFTER A1200 launch anyway. A1200 was only sold by Commodore for 18 months, so regardless of how many accelerator cards were sold games companies did not commit to a dead platform (Amiga was dead the minute Commodore filled for chapter 11 etc in the eyes of the software houses).

And as ALL the big box Amigas were overpriced and underpowered accelerator card sales for those machines were of no concern and pimple on the ass of the games buying Amiga user base.

PS You can do Doom on a standard Amiga 500, it's just the game window would be 80x50 pixels ;)
« Last Edit: December 29, 2010, 11:46:52 PM by Digiman »
 

Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2010, 12:12:22 AM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;602654
Incidently a $1000 PC absolutely destroys a $200 console. Even $ for $ the gap is quite small these days. A pc that considerably outdoes a ps3 in all areas can actually be bought for less money than a ps3.


Only because of Sony forcing Microsoft into a very long life cycle with 360 and Wii proving old tech=massive profit potential. Launch day of console not earing end of life cyle haf a decade later.

In 1990 a $1000 PC couldn't replicate Gauntlet 4 or Thunderforce 3 from Sega console and in 2006 a $1000 PC couldn't do 1920x1080 30fps quality games like Xbox 360.

Rubbish, I challenge you to find me a £250 PC (PS3 price) that plays Gears of War in 1080p better than PS3/360. Win7 licence alone is £70 and another £60 for case and decent PSU let alone an off the shelf machine with a real graphics card (min £100 alone) and then you will need a Bu-Ray drive too....already spent all our PS3 cash without even a m/b CPU RAM or HD I think no? ;) Like I said cheapest bare bones i7 wthout monitor + Windows = £600-700.
 

Offline runequester

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2010, 12:24:23 AM »
Games were a big deal on the amiga, but I dont know anybody who ONLY used it for games.
 
Everyone I knew were into something else as well, whether it was writing stuff for school, some coding/programming, plenty of graphics and music stuff, demos etc.
 
Especially when you factored that amiga app's tended to be pretty cheap in comparison to PC app's.
 

Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2010, 03:17:42 AM »
Quote from: Digiman;602757
Only because of Sony forcing Microsoft into a very long life cycle with 360 and Wii proving old tech=massive profit potential. Launch day of console not earing end of life cyle haf a decade later.

In 1990 a $1000 PC couldn't replicate Gauntlet 4 or Thunderforce 3 from Sega console and in 2006 a $1000 PC couldn't do 1920x1080 30fps quality games like Xbox 360.

Rubbish, I challenge you to find me a £250 PC (PS3 price) that plays Gears of War in 1080p better than PS3/360. Win7 licence alone is £70 and another £60 for case and decent PSU let alone an off the shelf machine with a real graphics card (min £100 alone) and then you will need a Bu-Ray drive too....already spent all our PS3 cash without even a m/b CPU RAM or HD I think no? ;) Like I said cheapest bare bones i7 wthout monitor + Windows = £600-700.


An i7 isnt required to outdo either xbox360 or ps3, an i5, am3, or even core2 based cpu is significantly more powerful.... here in australia a ps3 is $469....

quad core 3.2 ghz athlon2 = $100
mobo = $45
blu ray/dvd burnber combo drive = $50
4 gig ddr3@1333 = $45
500 gig sata drive = $45
gf 450 1gig video card = $115


Total price is $400 australian, a far cry from 6-700 pounds "minimum" (in fact its about 1/3rd or less. I guess including casing and keyboard,mouse, etc the prices are on par, but the pc is much more powerful and a lot more versatile).
I actually own an xbox360, and really enjoy it, but Im not going to pretend pc gear is comparitively bad value because it simply isnt.
Also the arguement wasnt for 2006, it was for now. If it was for 2006 then the xbox360 wouldnt be $200 (although I have no problems in admitting that its only in the last year or so that pcs are price competitive for gaming).

Incidently most ps3/xb360 games arent 1080p.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 03:24:10 AM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2010, 03:30:23 AM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;602784
An i7 isnt required to outdo either xbox360 or ps3, an i5, am3, or even core2 based cpu is significantly more powerful.... here in australia a ps3 is $469....

quad core 3.2 ghz athlon2 = $100
mobo = $45
blu ray/dvd burnber combo drive = $50
4 gig ddr3@1333 = $45
500 gig sata drive = $45
gf 450 1gig video card = $115


Total price is $400 australian, a far cry from 6-700 pounds "minimum" (in fact its about 1/3rd or less. I guess including casing and keyboard,mouse, etc the prices are on par, but the pc is much more powerful and a lot more versatile).
I actually own an xbox360, and really enjoy it, but Im not going to pretend pc gear is comparitively bad value because it simply isnt.
Also the arguement wasnt for 2006, it was for now.

Incidently most ps3/xb360 games arent 1080p.

I don't want a $45 motherboard and I'm not sure about your video card choice either.
But most of your arguement is sound.
I'd substitute the last Phenom X3 ($69.95 in my country) as it has an L3 cache and clocks easily to 3.3 Ghz (and that fourth core isn't going to do anything for gaming).

Oh! And you forgot to quote the price for the case, powersupply, keyboard, mouse, operating system, and monitor (unless you were planning on using your HD tv). That about doubles your price.
So unless you can figure out how to house everything, power it, get it bootstrapped and running, and be able to enter commands or move the mouse pointer without these components your estimates wrong.
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Offline fishy_fiz

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2010, 03:43:29 AM »
Sure, but the total of the parts is somewhat under the ps3 price. Including a case and keyboard/mouse to the price brings it on par as I already said. Sure there's better options, but there's also worse ones (Ive not chosen the cheapest gear here). I guess the only ommission is an OS, but we all know how many ppl actually buy their oses dont we ? There's also legally free options. As for the component choices they werent specifically chosen, it was just a random system to show that $ for $ pc hardware is competitive with consoles (especially ps3). Video card is ok, and quite easily best card for that money. ATI has nothing comparable in this price range (even 5770 is more expensive, while being considerably slower). Personally Id go for a 460, but that's another $50.
Also a ps3 doesnt come with a tv/monitor and a pc can just as easily be connected to a tv.

Now just to clarify, I dont say these things as a pc gamer, because Im not a pc gamer. I use my xbox360 much, much more for games. When it comes to games on a pc Im more of a retro/emulation fan which hardly needs even a budget system like what Ive mentioned. The whole point of it is that it gets a bit frustrating hearing the same old, quite frankly rubbish arguements over and over again. Chances are though unfortunately that these responses will fall on deaf ears (this is not a go against anyone, I just mean that Im sure I'll hear the same crap again by people who like to for no particular reason I can see, talk trash about things the dont like and/or understand).
« Last Edit: December 30, 2010, 03:58:05 AM by fishy_fiz »
Near as I can tell this is where I write something under the guise of being innocuous, but really its a pot shot at another persons/peoples choice of Amiga based systems. Unfortunately only I cant see how transparent and petty it makes me look.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2010, 03:58:55 AM »
Quote from: fishy_fiz;602789
Sure, but the total of the parts is somewhat under the ps3 price. Including a case and keyboard/mouse to the price brings it on par as I already said. Sure there's better options, but there's also worse ones (Ive not chosen the cheapest gear here). I guess the only ommission is an OS, but we all know how many ppl actually buy their oses dont we ? There's also legally free options. As for the component choices they werent specifically chosen, it was just a random system to show that $ for $ pc hardware is competitive with consoles (especially ps3). Video card is ok, and quite easily best card for that money. ATI has nothing comparable in this price range (even 5770 is more expensive, while being considerably slower). Personally Id go for a 460, but that's another $50.
Also a ps3 doesnt come with a tv/monitor and a pc can just as easily be connected to a tv.


Yeah, its close. I just wanted to point out that you are going to spend more (its inevitable).
But what you're failing to point out is its not just a gaming platform, its a functional computer.
Games are fine. But I want internet access, productivity software, video/audio/photo editing software and all the other varied things no console will ever do.
AND I can assemble it myself and NO ONE can come along and decide to deleat a feature I PAID for.
You gotta admit Sony's move was offensive (I e-mailed them that immediately after the decision - never got a reply).
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