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Author Topic: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?  (Read 12816 times)

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Offline Franko

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2010, 10:13:18 PM »
@ Digiman

The thing is your talking about the Amiga in terms of being nothing more than a games machine. I know a lot of folk see the Amiga this way but to me it was far from being a games console and comparing it against PCs of the time make no sense to me.

The Amiga for those who could be bothered to put their minds to it at the time was the only low cost viable solution for folk who wanted to create low cost videos and GFX and some even used it professionally for it's audio. I mean how many Amiga's did the Disney Studio's kit themselves out with or the Creators of Babylon 5 for example, if PCs at that point in time were really so good then why did the aforementioned examples choose Amiga... so if your gonna compare the Amiga to other PCs don't forget to include the good points too...:)
 

Offline giZmo350

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2010, 10:13:48 PM »
But the point is as much of a fan as I am, I wonder if anyone else at the time it was for sale saw the 4000/030 as too expensive and AGA as just short of being enough of an upgrade. Is it just me who didn't get fleeced by all the bullshit claims and expectations in respected magazines? Even I knew that A1200 AGA flight sims would never look as good as those on 486 PCs despite the bullshit being peddled about AGA!

Badly programmed games I can do nothing about, that's something those company directors should hold their head in shame compared to the expertly programmed Japanese games on consoles using 100% of the machine's power.

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Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2010, 10:15:09 PM »
Quote from: Franko;602027
Why does Doom always come into the equation !!!

One of the crapiest games ever IMHO, but if your really want to see what can be done with an Amiga without RTG & this type of game then you really need look no further than Alien Breed 3D... :)


Doom is a game as perfectly suited to a 486 PC as Shadow of the Beast was to Amiga 1000 or A500. It's around the time of A1200/4000 that the tables were turned forever over Amiga/PC gaming superiority. At the time there wasn't a single Mac/PC money could buy that could do what SotB did in 1989 using off the shelf computers you could purchase.

It artificially aged Amiga instantly because if you couldn't run Doom as well on a £2000 Amiga 4000/040 as a £750 486 PC what does that say about the technology behind it?

I may not be a huge fan of Doom but it's 3D and that's all there is too it, 2D games were no longer sophisticated enough, everyone wanted more realistic games in 3D apparently

Because AGA took 8x as much messing about to colour 1 pixel on a screen as PC VGA cards AND Amiga CPUs like in the A1200 were slow you would never see a £750 Amiga in 1994 being able to play any 3D games like Doom full screen in 320x200 mode at 25-30 frames per second.

AB3D on a stock A1200 is going nowhere as far as speed of running the thing is compared to Doom on a 40mhz 386 PC which people were giving away to charity at the time thanks to how AGA worked.

The launch game Ridge Racer also did this on Playstation and shoved a rocket up the arse of PC gamers spending thousands on Pentium PCs. As did early 360 games for PC owners spending £450 just on a graphics card to play the same games as a £300 games console.
 

Offline Franko

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2010, 10:17:34 PM »
@ Digiman

Guess you missed my other post while you were typing this one...;)
 

Offline motrucker

Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2010, 12:25:30 AM »
Don't know why I stepped into this one. At least I have boots on....
Back when it came it came out, it was OK. BUT love it is a wee bit strong....
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Offline Franko

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2010, 12:31:10 AM »
Quote from: motrucker;602056
Don't know why I stepped into this one. At least I have boots on....
Back when it came it came out, it was OK. BUT love it is a wee bit strong....


Who said that !!!

Not strong enough if you ask me... :)

If someone pointed a gun at my Amiga or the ex and made me choose, I'd have no hesitation in my decision... ;)
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2010, 01:01:17 AM »
Quote from: Digiman;601977


As games like Doom, Screamer Rally or Actua soccer are from the Pentium era of PCs then AGA stuck on the only mass market machine being a crippled* 14mhz 286 equivalent or the overpriced 4000/030 (outperformed by the 28mhz 020 Blizzard 1220 equiped A1200s) we were screwed anyway regardless of if you have chunky pixels or not. Doom plays fine full screen on a 486/33 with ISA graphics AKA 8 or 11mhz 16bit bus.

Amiga needed sales, sales = good games, good games of the time of A1200 launch were 256 colour true multi-layered parallax 2D games with plenty of sound channels from Sega and Nintendo. We only had the 256 colour graphics bit, so 66.666% fail then clearly. And we also had 90% pathetic programming making up our games and sometimes only 16 colours thanks to greedy software houses doing the dirty and porting to the Atari ST first and compromising the design.

*(no fast ram = 50% CPU speed potential)


Amiga needed sales, but MOST Amiga users said "why can't I run a Doom clone on my 1.3 A500 with 512 meg and two floppies?"  I'm no talking about the enthusiasts that inhabit boards like this, I'm talking about the other 90% of Amiga users who never upgraded that A500 and then moved on to their consoles and later PC's.  IMO Amiga users did as much damage in preventing the advancement of Amiga hardware and software as poor management did.
 

Offline SamuraiCrow

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2010, 02:10:27 AM »
I enjoyed my A1200 immensely when I bought it.  There should never have been a 7 or 8 bitplane mode in it though.  They should have gone directly to chunky for 8-bit resolutions.  Also, they should have added page-mode support to the blitter.
 

Offline kolla

Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2010, 02:25:53 AM »
Quote from: Digiman;602023
This is why ESCOM went bankrupt. £400 for A1200 2mb 14mhz 020 running at effectively 7mhz speeds without Fast ram in 1995/96 was something only die hard fans would buy who missed out.


You give Amiga way too much credit, ESCOM did not fail due to Amiga.
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Offline tone007

Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2010, 02:33:01 AM »
I like AGA for a couple of games that don't work with ECS/OCS, and 256 color Workbench is nice if you're not in a rush.  At 1024x768 on an Indivision, 256 color mode was pretty nice.
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Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2010, 04:25:27 AM »
Quote from: kolla;602088
You give Amiga way too much credit, ESCOM did not fail due to Amiga.


I meant if this is their idea of good business strategy type comment.... :)
 

Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2010, 04:50:53 AM »
Quote from: Franko;602029
@ Digiman

The thing is your talking about the Amiga in terms of being nothing more than a games machine. I know a lot of folk see the Amiga this way but to me it was far from being a games console and comparing it against PCs of the time make no sense to me.

The Amiga for those who could be bothered to put their minds to it at the time was the only low cost viable solution for folk who wanted to create low cost videos and GFX and some even used it professionally for it's audio. I mean how many Amiga's did the Disney Studio's kit themselves out with or the Creators of Babylon 5 for example, if PCs at that point in time were really so good then why did the aforementioned examples choose Amiga... so if your gonna compare the Amiga to other PCs don't forget to include the good points too...:)


Lightwave exists thanks to Newtek, and that is thanks to Digipaint/Digiview and A500/A1000 users like us who bought their stuff :)

But B5 was rendered using cheap but very powerful PC based render farms. CPU speed was always an issue on Amiga to compensate for cost of custom chips in the design.

I don't consider the Amiga a games only machine at all, from 1986 to today I spend a lot of time doodling in dpaint, messing about with samplers, digitising huge animation sequences to RAM (until my 9mb A2000 died that is) and making 'interesting' anim brushes. I don't do office based stuff because I do office based stuff at work all day and so not interested to learn another package. And I had used my A1000 to do such stuff not because it was cheaper but because it was better at it than PC or it was impossible on PC and I actually liked using Workbench too with it's swanky multitasking :)

Trouble is though that Amiga was judged on it's games by new comers, I bought an A1200 because I wanted to experience AGA for myself (not what reviewers thought it could do) but other people would look at a game and think "looks a bit cack compared to my SNES/Megadrive" and forget about it. We needed a game like Defender of the Crown or Marble Madness on the Amiga 1000 really. This wasn't really possible because whilst there were some good improvements to the OCS/ECS capabilities it wasn't anything amazing that would generate sales, and most games were badly programmed anyway.

And the whole "buy your upgrades off some other company and leave us alone" attitude by Commodore to A1200 really pissed me off. It was Commodore's job to sell me 28mhz or 56mhz 020 versions of A1200s at cost price and have Fast ram inside the motherboard as an option at the shop. But they make you buy a new circuitboard from a middleman just to get the full speed of my 14mhz 020 inside my A1200. 3rd party peripherals=extra profit for the middle man. Bad for us and bad for games as software houses only write 2mb 50% speed A1200 games because of it.

They should have made A1200 and A1200+ (28mhz 020 version) model from day one and BOTH should have been offered with fast ram in the box if you wanted it.

People don't like buying extras, and true high street sales would not be in places like Silica Shop they needed to be selling in High St electrical stores in Dixons with all the options there.

14 or 28mhz sir?
2mb or 4mb sir?

The memory should be fitted directly to a SIMM slot behind a panel like a laptop did at the time, and the hard drive should have been designed to be used exactly like a laptop connects to them, a slot behind a panel you just slide the hard drive into and put the lid back. This way we could get our stuff and upgrade it ourselves OR the shop can hold just the bare models and they purchase their own memory/HDDs and sell at RRP or less as they want. WIN :)
 

Offline save2600

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2010, 06:14:46 AM »
Quote from: Digiman;602117

And the whole "buy your upgrades off some other company and leave us alone" attitude by Commodore to A1200 really pissed me off.

Exactly. Out of touch. Out of mind. Not even a Gaucho by any standards!
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2010, 12:15:47 PM »
Quote from: Digiman;602117

People don't like buying extras, )


PC users didn't seem to mind.  Amiga user OTOH....
 

Offline pwermonger

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2010, 03:08:09 PM »
Do you love everything about it without exception is kind of silly. What I dont like about it is how late it was. Should have been the chipset in the 3000/600 and my understanding reading the histories it should have been. That would have put Amiga on track for AAA in the 4000/1200. Instead Amiga sat on now anchient chipsets while the rest of the industry continued to advance.
 

Offline DigimanTopic starter

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Re: Am I the only one who doesn't love AGA chipset?
« Reply #44 from previous page: December 27, 2010, 03:33:32 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;602155
PC users didn't seem to mind.  Amiga user OTOH....


PC User goes from 386 to Pentium PC and Lotus III or SF2 improves automatically with higher sample rate for sound/smoother scrolling/faster 3D/smoother gameplay.  Cost of upgrade is worth it for serious and gaming software.

Amiga User buys Blizzard 040 card for same £500. Lotus III is still ropey as hell compared to Lotus II game engine and SF2 is still the 5th worst conversion of the arcade in the world.

And this is if the games even work with an 040 (a big issue for OCS/ECS games actually). I wouldn't buy an 030 EVER because the 030 is a waste of time and does bugger all an 020 can't do as far as games coding is concerned and MIPS integer type CPU grunt. I had no interest in ray tracing on Amiga ever so FPU was waste of time and MMU isn't used by KS/WB, and if I did it would be on Lightwave PC on a super fast pentium x PC etc which was cheaper than PPC based A4000s anyway.

Maybe now you understand why people didn't want to blow money on hardware costing more than their A1200 purchased new which would be worth a fraction of its cost as soon as they broke the seal on the packaging. (unless you waited 20 years later and sell it on ebay today in 2010 for a small profit :) )