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Offline Seehund

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #14 from previous page: August 15, 2002, 01:26:29 AM »
Wittgenstein:

Quote
Hmm, but that means that even the predecessor to the A1 (which is in fact a evaluation board from the make of the chipset, i.e. no product for the masses, only potential buyers of their chips like Bplan and Eyetech) is newer than the Pegasos since Bplan released the pegasos Feb 2001.


Nope, anyone could buy a TeronCX in August 01.
From your URL: "bplan GmbH announces that the first Pegasos prototypes are now available. The current prototypes will be used for internal testing and verification of system software, and are not for public release."
Photos and specs of those prototypes (or maybe they were later prototypes, can't remember now) have been shown and they were quite different from what we see today.

Quote
Ok, enough nitpicking, but do you think the pegasos design is _NEW_?


No, only in comparison to the Teron/A1 boards, and that they have not been commercially available for sale yet.

Quote
Both the A1 and the Pegaos are based on _old_ tech and _old_ ideas and a release of one platform x month before the other one doesnt make it old.


Yeah, there might be nothing new (as in: not seen in other hardware or specs before) or revolutionary about either mobo, but chronologically the Pegasos implementation of existing standards is newer than that of the TeronCX/A1G3SE, and it does use more modern components. Anyway, I'm interested to see it (especially running a new... ahem... ;) ...an OS that I haven't used) and maybe get to talk to some people who are involved in the project.

Oooh, a petition-thread! ;)

1: Primarily it would be AI's/Hyperion's responsibility to port their product to as much hardware as possible, it would be in their interest, third party hardware vendors won't care about AmigaOS (or MorphOS for that matter, before some trademarkist starts shouting "MorphOS troll" or something).
Otherwise it could be anyone really, if AI/Hyperion feels it wouldn't be worth their (Hyperion's) while.
There's a thread on MooBunny right now about this where I have tried to elaborate on this. Follow this link, it's too much to copy and paste out of its context.

2: See Kronos' reply. And someone who sells an OS of their own is even less likely to apply for a license for the privilege of  bundling somebody else's OS than "independent" hardware vendors are (and they are not likely to do it either).

3: First of all, this is not just about POP or "open hardware", it's about any hardware that AmigaOS could be made to run on with reasonable effort from Hyperion or a third party. Old, current and future.
But OK then, as for currently available POP hardware: Pegasos, TeronCX and its derivative, Inguard's Phoenix. But, again, this is not just about POP hardware, and it's not just about currently available such either, so question 3 isn't all that interesting IMO. I used the Pegasos as one current, concrete example in the petition. In retrospect maybe I should have left that out, but sometimes you have to spell things out for some of your readers.

Quote
(the biggest logic flaw is point three which fails to be constructive). The way it is stated now, it is much the same as asking Ainc to stop the time.


How so? I'm not saying that "at the day of release of AmigaOS 4.0 you must provide versions for AmigaOnes, PowerMacs, PowerBooks, Pegasoses, Terons, Phoenixes, Barbies, Xs, Ys, Zs...".

Basically I'm saying "Don't exclude any viable hardware option by default for no technical reason, AmigaOS needs all the hardware it can get, leave the field open and by all means go ahead with licensing - but don't make it compulsory and a prerequisite for AmigaOS to ever have even a chance to be considered to be ported to any hardware option".

Have you read the stuff at http://amigapop.8bit.co.uk ? More details and attempts at explanations of my reasoning there.
(ยค#%&!!! The Portland monkeys seem to have fscked up things over there again. Hope it'll be back to normal soon.)

Edit: Doh! Forgot the MooBunny link.
Edit 2: A mirror site of amigapop.8bit.co.uk.
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Offline Elektro

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2002, 01:30:14 AM »
Quote
No OS4 running there, period.


How do you know?  :-o
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Offline Coder

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2002, 01:52:31 AM »
@Elektro

Quote
How do you know?


Hyperion allready said that on that Italian Amiga show there will be no OS4. My conclusion is also not on this one.

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Offline Wittgenstein

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2002, 04:15:27 AM »
@ Seehund
Quote
Nope, anyone could buy a TeronCX in August 01.

The prize was 3000$ or something like that and there were no working OS (maybe Linux booted). This wasnt meant for the normal user, it was ment as an evaluation board. I think the A1 has a better chans to be free from bugs since it is based on this and not made from scratch. This is based on personal experience.

Quote
Yeah, there might be nothing new (as in: not seen in other hardware or specs before) or revolutionary about either mobo, but chronologically the Pegasos implementation of existing standards is newer than that of the TeronCX/A1G3SE, and it does use more modern components.


What components are more modern? And again what is _newer_ with the design of the Pegasos(except that you claim that it was completed after the A1).

And now to the petitionstuff. I still dont get it how you can think that I will sign a petition that complains about isues that are so far in the future. Again my first point: How do you know that Ainc/Hyperion wont support more hardware than A1? I havent seen anything from Ainc/Hyperion which say that they dont will support anything more than the A1. In fact, Hyprion sounded possitive to a port to the PMG4 (if they could get Apples permision ofcourse). The problems and difficulties about not supporting enough hardware is so far in the future that anything could happned on the way.

Quote
Basically I'm saying "Don't exclude any viable hardware option by default for no technical reason, AmigaOS needs all the hardware it can get, leave the field open and by all means go ahead with licensing - but don't make it compulsory and a prerequisite for AmigaOS to ever have even a chance to be considered to be ported to any hardware option".


Yes I understand what you are saying but I am saying that you create a senario that doesnt exist. It can exist in the future and then I'll sign but now this is speculation. Why not wait and see? The licensing has not hurt anyone yet  (the MOS-Ainc war has roots way back and it is not a consequence of the licensing).

/W


/W
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Offline Hammer

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2002, 07:43:09 AM »
Quote
The Pegasos is uses the same northbridge as the A1, is a standard VIA-model (one generation ahead of the one use in the A1).

Why is it "ahead"?

You wouldn't even survive a x86 mobo debate war IF this is your level evidence.

What is the difference between A1's VIA southbridge and Pegasos's VIA southbridge in term of feature set?

Is Pegasos's VIA southbridge on par with the mainstream VIA based x86 mobos*?  

*i.e. just using it as a point of reference since I do know "VT82C686B" and "VT8233A" feature set.

Please present the factual data to support your statements.

http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/gfx/pegasos/side.jpg
According to this web site
http://www.hesbynett.no/hagen/amiga1.html
http://www.hesbynett.no/hagen/a1img/000006.jpg

This prototype AmigaOne mobo seems to befitted with  the "VT82C686A".

==========================================
According to this web site;
http://www.bplan-gmbh.de/gfx/pegasos/side.jpg

This Pegasos mobo seems to befitted with  the VIA "VT8231"(picture quality is a bit fuzzy).

Should I continue?

I'll make  more observation later.

Refer to VIA's web site for the feature set

http://61.13.32.110/gaiscgi/IDGetfile.exe?database=www.via.com.tw&pid=62691&lineno=36&recordline=1136&
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Offline Elektro

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2002, 04:51:43 PM »
Let's set some things straight :-)

The northbridge is the same in Pegasos and A1 since AFAIK it is the only northbridge available for PPC.

Pegasos southbridge is a little bit better (or newer) than the one in A1 but I personally don't see any big differences between the two.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2002, 05:08:01 PM »
Quote
The northbridge is the same in Pegasos and A1 since AFAIK it is the only northbridge available for PPC.

Did you forget Escena's custom northbridge?
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Offline Elektro

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2002, 05:14:09 PM »
Quote
Did you forget Escena's custom northbridge?


That's nowhere to be seen.
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Offline Hammer

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2002, 06:46:45 PM »
Quote
That's nowhere to be seen?

It was evaluated by Eyetech.

Quote
The northbridge is the same in Pegasos and A1 since AFAIK it is the only northbridge available for PPC.


Refer to http://www.totalimpact.com/briQ.html

=========================================
Hardware Specifications
CPU: PowerPC 750 (G3) or 7400 (G4) - Upgradable CPU module

Chipsets: Northbridge - IBM CPC710-100+, Southbridge - Winbond W83C553

Memory: Two 168 DIMM sites, support for up to 512Mb of SDRAM, 3.3V, unbuffered PC-100 SDRAM

Local Bus: Local 60X bus speed: 100MHz 64-bit

BootROM/BIOS: Open Firmware, supports remote boot

Storage: IDE - 44 pin, 2mm connector, up to 40GB internal hard drive

Serial: 16550C UART (w/FIFO), RS-232 interface, DE-9 connector

Network: 10/100Base TX Ethernet

Power Consumption: 15 to 30 Watts

Expansion: 64-bit, 66MHz PCI connector (custom)

Front Panel Display: Programmable Vacuum Florescent Display (VFD), 2 X 20 characters Two push button switches, bi-color LED

Debug and Development: PCPLD ISP, BDM/COP, JTAG

Dimensions: 5.74 X 1.625 X 8.9 inches

Weight: From 1.85 pounds

Software Specifications
Operating System: PowerPC Linux - Yellow Dog Linux Pre-installed

Development Environment: GNU C/C++ compiler, Text Editors, Debuggers

Warranty: One year parts and labor.

Ordering Information
briQ w/PowerPC G3 (750) 500MHz, 256MB SDRAM, 10GB HDD - $1,499

briQ w/PowerPC G4 (7400) 500MHz, 512MB SDRAM, 20GB HDD - $1,999
==========================================

Refer to
http://mcg.motorola.com/cfm/templates/category.cfm?subCatID=34
(Motorola's PowerPC mobos)

What any more PPC based PCs?

There is a few PPC vendors out there, I wonder IF AmigaInc/Hyperion has directly approached them in regards to building more AmigaOS/PPC based PC clones.

What PPC needs is a software overlord to guide this leaderless clone army.
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Offline Elektro

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2002, 07:33:22 PM »
Quote

It was evaluated by Eyetech.


AFAIK there wasn't even a working prototype.

Anyway my statement was a bit exaggerated but still MAI seem to have the best PPC northbridge with a reasonable price. Apple has their own but that's another story. Anyway what's the point of this debate?
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Offline Seehund

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Re: AONE Gothenburg 2002 Fall Event site online
« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2002, 01:31:54 AM »
Wittgenstein:


Quote
The prize was 3000$ or something like that and there were no working OS (maybe Linux booted). This wasnt meant for the normal user, it was ment as an evaluation board.


I don't know what the price was when it was first introduced, but in February a "commercial" board was "less than" USD $300, sans CPU. And, yes, it was delivered with a Linux distro (TurboLinux IIRC).
No, the Teron was not meant for Joe Blow to use as a personal desktop computer for AOL + games, but nobody has stopped Joe Blow from buying one, and now one distributor is even targeting a home desktop market, us, with a slightly updated and relabelled version of it.

Quote

From: "Marketing Department" marketing@mai.com
Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:18:45 -0800

Thanks for your interest in Mai Logic products. The Teron CX evaluation
board is priced at US $3,900 ( technical suppport is also included in the
price
). However, we also sell commercial Teron CX boards that include bare
board without CPU and SDRAM for less than US $300. We will provide the CPU
of  your choice at the current market price seperately.



Quote
What components are more modern? And again what is _newer_ with the design of the Pegasos(except that you claim that it was completed after the A1).


What fuss over one word! But then again I'd expect the Meaning of a word to be particularly important to a Wittgenstein. ;)

The southbridge is newer, and design-wise the board is obviously made with more modern methods than the TeronCX, which a quick glance at photos of the two instantly shows. Tighter traces, more effective use of space on a micro-ATX format, yet it has more features (IEEE1394, IrDA, SP-DIF, CPU-module slot). The Teron/A1 does actually look rather "primitive" so to speak in comparison.




*** OT ***
Quote
I still dont get it how you can think that I will sign a petition that complains about isues that are so far in the future.


Because the presented distribution policies are to govern "all future versions" of AmigaOS, and they need to be changed right now, before they are allowed to harm any version of AmigaOS. For example, it might be too late to replenish lost market attractiveness with a later change of distribution policies if AmigaOS by then is already known from the outset as "that weird little OS that must be sold with and run on special versions of hardware from special vendors". AmigaOS needs access to an as wide range of hardware as possible as soon as possible. It can't afford to be limited by artificial licensing obstacles against even *beginning* the work of porting it to another piece of hardware. Naturally competition between AmigaOS-compatible hardware vendors must be encouraged and unrestricted from the beginning. The future of AmigaOS is dependent on hardware, not vice versa. This needs to be done right from the beginning, and I don't think that is happening right now.

Quote
Yes I understand what you are saying but I am saying that you create a senario that doesnt exist. It can exist in the future and then I'll sign but now this is speculation. Why not wait and see? The licensing has not hurt anyone yet


Why wait until the damage is done? Why not remove at least this risk of failure and total ostracism of AmigaOS before it can happen? It's not a good idea to gamble on a future for AmigaOS by giving it the worst possible conditions for at least a moderate success even on the "enthusiast" market, hoping that hardware vendors will come flocking to get an Amiga Inc. license. The first step is to make your product popular on a market, and when you have the popularity you can start hoping that people will want to license your product.
And yes, the compulsory licensing has hurt someone already. Us. Us who want to buy AmigaOS, and us who want technical issues to set the limitations for what hardware we buy and from whom we buy it. AmigaOS could have been running on the Pegasos by the time it's released, but *only* because of the compulsory licensing/bundling/dongling requirement this is not possible. Now there's just one piece of hardware sold by one distributor, and even if that hardware would have been the best on the planet, it's still in effect a monopoly and that's not good for anyone, not even necessarily for the monopolist in this case with this small market and in the long run.
[color=0000FF]Maybe it\\\'s still possible to [/color]save AmigaOS [color=0000FF][/size][/color]  :rtfm:......