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Offline koaftder

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Re: boot test
« Reply #29 from previous page: November 17, 2006, 05:53:02 PM »
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stopthegop wrote:
@koaftder

Nice point by point response there!  When did I claim to have experience "developing software?"  So programmers are the only ones who can be knowledgeable about computers?  Thats mighty pretentious  


You are not going to get a point by point response from me because your arguments do not warrant it.

You did infer to have some knowledge in software when you claimed that you could crash xp kernel by writing zeros from 00000000-0000FFFF in a userland process. You still have a check right here for $100 dollars if you'd like to demonstrate it.
 

Offline adolescent

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Re: boot test
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2006, 05:57:57 PM »
Quote

stopthegop wrote:
Quote
Windows XP: over 1GB


Thank you for proving my point.  Most if not all of that one gigabyte is useless lard.  Thats the whole point.  We went to the moon on 64K, now we need a gig just to type a letter?  


Yes, all useless lard.  

Thousands of device drivers
Secure/multi-user file system (also now EFS)
Current TCP/IP stack (with IPSec)
Common multimedia API (DirectX)
Power management
Task scheduler
etc.  


Time to move on.  Bye Amiga.org.  :(
 

Offline stopthegopTopic starter

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Re: boot test
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2006, 07:13:41 PM »
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You did infer to have some knowledge in software when you claimed that you could crash xp kernel by writing zeros from 00000000-0000FFFF in a userland process. You still have a check right here for $100 dollars if you'd like to demonstrate it.


You want me to demonstrate a corrupted registry?  I think I remember mentioning that.  Anyway, that box has already been fdisk'd windoze reinstalled on it.  Next time one of my windows machines {bleep}s its registry though I'll be happy to show you how such a program could take down a windoze box, no problem (you won't have to wait too long, promise).  
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Offline koaftder

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Re: boot test
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2006, 08:14:20 PM »
Quote

stopthegop wrote:
Quote
You did infer to have some knowledge in software when you claimed that you could crash xp kernel by writing zeros from 00000000-0000FFFF in a userland process. You still have a check right here for $100 dollars if you'd like to demonstrate it.


You want me to demonstrate a corrupted registry?  I think I remember mentioning that.  Anyway, that box has already been fdisk'd windoze reinstalled on it.  Next time one of my windows machines {bleep}s its registry though I'll be happy to show you how such a program could take down a windoze box, no problem (you won't have to wait too long, promise).  


That silly little program you claim to have compiled with lcc and crashed your xp box had absolutely nothing to do with the registry.

Show me a registry key you can set from an unprivilidged user account that causes xp to bluescreen.

I bet the vast majority of your problems with windows are related to you installing all kinds of crap programs while logged in as administrator like 90% of all the other windows users.

Ive seen a lot of amiga systems where the user has installed wads and wads of useless crap and guess what? Their systems guru and are bogged down as well.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: boot test
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2006, 08:50:31 PM »
I'm no windows fan, but my Win2K install is solid as a rock. The only instability I have ever experienced with it came down to a faulty DIMM.
int p; // A
 

Offline adz

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Re: boot test
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2006, 10:44:29 PM »
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Tomas wrote:

But what features does it have that require such ridiculous amounts of ram? It seems to me like it aint coded to efficiently use ram. You can use a lightweight OS like AmigaOS for most of the same tasks as a Windows pc, so what is the benefit of it using so much more resources for doing the exact same task?
Windows is in my opinion bloatware...


I wasn't refering to RAM, I was refering to the HDD footprint.

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OSX is pretty slow and resource hungry as well..
Though the real reason for me having a PC, is due to the fact that i like to play a game every now and then. I use linux whenever possible though..


I use my home PC for games and I use my Mac for work, its that simple. I wouldn't exactly call OSX slow, you can still run the lastest version on relatively old hardware quite well. I use a PowerBook G4 866 for surfing the web and storing my photos on the go and its plenty fast. One of the guys at work had it running on a G3 600 and it ran fine.
 

Offline adz

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Re: boot test
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2006, 10:51:08 PM »
@stopthegop

You're reply to my second post is more bloated than Vista :lol:

Stop talking through your ass and put together something decent if you want to hear more from me on this topic.
 

Offline alewis

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Re: boot test
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2006, 11:58:03 PM »
Good grief.... what is it about the Amiga community that causes everyone to slightly miss a point, and descend into flames!

The underlying point *is* valid, and one that has been oft asked on the 'net.. why is it, that with machines getting faster, productivity seems to decrease (to cover most/all bases of "longer boot times", "longer load times", "harder to actually get anything done", etc).

I used the same "argument" on the occasional really obnoxious "my PC is faster than yours because" types - I;d challenge them to a simple test, pitting and betting my computer against theirs: from cold boot, write and print a one line letter. I'd even state that mine would be done before theirs finished POST. I'd just omit it was a C64 running EasyScript in ROM cartridge.

Part of the answer is that the Amiga, as a hardware platform, is pretty non-complex; ie the hardware is all the same. Its a 680x0 class, with ACS or ECS.

This affects us in two ways
1. The hardware "POST" is simpler, and quicker, on an Amiga than on a PC. Especially a PC with additional cards (stuff a few SCSI cards in a PC to see an extreme of this)
2. The number of possible base drivers necessary to ship - and potentially install - to boot a potential computer. In the case of the PC, its a heck of a lot.

Additional drivers are supplied by manufacturer, and really amount to a few libraries or device drivers.

Windows, otoh, has a vast potential range of hardware that might be found. MS ships many drivers, and manufacturers ship plenty more.

But that isnt the whole answer.

Windows has a greater amount of abstraction, ie the kernel, HAL, APIs, drivers, stacks, and so forth. There are a goodly number of services that are started, often by default, and many of which are modular and have dependencies. All of which equals disk access.

not being a programmer, I cant comment on the following, but I understand that modern compilers do not, by default, compile for speed - compile time switches are required - neither for compact code.

The next I can believe: MS does not, as a design goal, require compact code, but code that is, for example, "compatible", "secure", and "bug-free". IGNORE the reality of what comes out (those listed are by example, so dont detract by banging on about security or lack thereof), concentrate on the phrase design goal: if there is no requirement to produce compact code, then priority can be given to meeting the stated goals (ie those I listed, and whatever MS's design goals may be).

I can well beleive that compact code is not a requirement; in a world where the average PC ships with 512MB, where even 3 years aho it was 256mb, where hard drives are now averaging 300GB, where is the driver for compact code?

So we have a number of factors that lead to increased load times, even though drives are getting faster due to increased data density and spindle speeds (and hence lower latency), where bus speeds are faster, where CPU speed is faster, and so forth.

Oh, and add into the mix that despite the increase in RAM, Windows virtual memory system must be factored in - ie it pages out to disk on the slightest excuse. Now, a very very knowledgable acquaintance explained this, and frankly I was wibbling, but the crux is that the basic philosphy of Windows memory management was sound for its day (tis safer to swap out at start, than fail to load and have o swap, which takes a hck of a lot longer), but is perhaps not so relevant today.

And it isnt just Windows this affects (bar the memory management). Look at Linux running ona modern PC. I remember installing RH and Mandrake, v7/8 circa 2001, on a dual PII and a Thinkpad T20. Nice. Booted quick, was slick to use. Just stuck Suse 10 on my laptop and my desktop... feckin hell! Its like running through treacle.

None of course, answers the question.. just why does Windows slow down over time, especially shut down times!
 

Offline stopthegopTopic starter

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Re: boot test
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2006, 12:57:00 AM »
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Stop talking through your ass and put together something decent if you want to hear more from me


You were not specific about what part of my response you had a problem with.  In fact the only thing you said that was specific was the word "ass".  But you should know the is a discussion about operating systems, not an autobiography.  
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Offline Homer

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Re: boot test
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2006, 08:50:05 AM »
So how long does AROS take to boot up  :crazy:
Wow, this really got out of hand. A simple "look at this and comment" thread descends into a flame fest  :flame:
Its time for a group hug ppl  :knuddel:
Let X = X
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Offline melange

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Re: boot test
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2006, 09:11:47 AM »
This discussion seems to have gone in two directions, which boots quicker and which is more stable?

Trying to compare the systems on a Boot Time basis is just nuts in my opinion, XP has so much more to load than your average Amiga.  In an effort to make XP universal, it comes out of the box ready to automatically configure a plethora of hardware devices.  That's gotta take up some space.  OK, so it's bloatware, you won't get any argument from me on that.  But I have to wonder what Amiga OS would be like if it had equal quantities of development and industry usage over the years.  The requirement to keep up with the times would probably have bloated Amiga OS somewhat as well.

I teach low-level IT subjects (Hardware/SysAdmin/Networking)and run a classroom with a number of Windows 2003 Server/XP-Pro domains.  I have been teaching since 2000 and have experienced usage of a variety Windows OS's in a classroom environment.  All the PC's the students use are identical to each other and the OS is also identical and reimaged daily, so it's as if it's a new install everytime the students sit down for a new class.

In 2000 I was using Win98 clients with NT4 servers, a dreadful combination, and while the NT4 servers were reasonably stable, providing you didn't try and install something on them, the Windows 98 boxes were forever crashing.

A year or so later we moved to Win2000 servers and clients at this point I found Windows to be stable and fast.  When you have 16 students installing loads of Apps, Utils and adding new hardware and drivers simultaneously, it was amusing to see random Win98 crashes on some machines, even though all students are doing exactly the same thing at the same time on an the same operating system build, that seemed to be mostly gone with the introduction of Win2000.

Now I'm using XP/2003 and again it's proving to be a stable environment, but I personally feel that the Windows 2000 environment was faster and more stable.

One thing I have noticed is that apllications under XP crash more frequently than they did on 2000, but at least when the App goes belly up, it dosen't take the OS with it.  XP closes the program and usually you can restart the program and continue without a reboot required.

XP is more stable in my opinion.

During my recent foray into bringing all my Amiga's back to life and building them all into working systems again I have taken many visits to the GURU.  I had in fact forgotten just how frequent this was, and back in the day, I guess I just took it forgranted or saw it as the normal operation of an Amiga.

All that said Amiga's RULE  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :-D
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Offline coldfish

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Re: boot test
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2006, 09:17:20 AM »
Amiga; made by C=, OS written by C=.

XP-PC; made by 1000+ manufacturers, OS by M$.

My Xbox boots in <10 seconds, showing that when M$ have control of the hardware...