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Author Topic: Philosophical Question - Amiguing  (Read 38965 times)

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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2013, 10:17:32 AM »
There's another reason I remember reading somewhere, that dolphins don't have advanced civilisation: it's impossible to do chemistry underwater.

Also here is a video of a crow having fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dWw9GLcOeA
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 11:31:41 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;741718
I'm not sure Humans do have the ability to control their own destiny... We perhaps have the potential to do so, but really we are mostly just slaves to the common animal functions of eating and trying to reproduce... And then patting ourselves on the back and marvelling at how easy we have made it to do these things.
Alex has this on a T-shirt:
http://imgur.com/TuuyH
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2013, 03:52:55 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;741728
Not really. The Quran says the universe was created in six days.
That information came from God & he was trying to give us information we didn't have. Whether he said it was a week, a year, a billion years would be irrelevant. He just needed to give the actual number.
He didn't need to give us anything. The exact length of time it took to create the Universe isn't really important to how one lives one's life.

Ima quote Philo of Alexandria (c. 20 BCE – c. 50 CE):

By "six days" Moses does not indicate a space of time in which      the world was made, but the principles of order and productivity      which governed its making

But you don't actually care what it means, it is convenient to take it literally so that you can ridicule it. Taking things literally wasn't invented until about the 18th century I think.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2013, 05:17:56 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;741791
I'm not asking to be shown dolphin monorails or something, here. There are plenty of ways that human intelligence can demonstrate itself in a visible, external fashion that don't require chemistry, hands, or anything else that dolphins don't have.
Coincidentally, this is in the news today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23410137

But, supposing some other animal had a human level of intelligence - how would it manifest? Would it necessarily be something we would easily recognise? How would we know? We assume that anything intelligent would "be like us" but this is anthropocentric.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2013, 12:11:57 PM »
The expanding sun will wipe out all life on Earth in a billion years or so unless we invent planet-tugs or something.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2013, 09:52:34 PM »
There seems to be a lot of worry about why God didn't tell us exactly how long it took. Well firstly because it doesn't even matter. It's just a narrative device. Obsessing over the literal meaning of it completely misses the point. Actually if anything it's an etiological myth that explains why we have a seven-day week with one day off, as such it gives us far more useful information about how to live our lives than "13.8 billion years" does.

This latter we were able to find out by ourselves anyway, which is part of the fun of existing. You'll be complaining next that God didn't do your crossword puzzle for you.

Whether God "controlled" evolution or not, I don't know, or why it matters. God created the laws of nature, so He created evolution. But if He does control it at all, well mutations are essentially the result of quantum probabilities, which due to Bell's theorem aren't predictable using any information in the Universe, so if they're not truly random (which to my mind is absurd) this information must be coming from outside the Universe.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2013, 07:24:46 PM »
There is divine revelation in everything from ancient texts to beehives. How could there not be, if God pervades all things? Nikola Tesla credits a vision in the sky for his invention of the electric motor. I'd wager there are even bits of divine revelation in the Linux kernel.

I can identify with it myself. There are times when I really don't feel like I can take all the credit for my own work, times when I really can't account for where an idea came from, or when I seemed to know something that I had no earthly right to know.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2013, 11:16:36 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;742537
It comes from your imagination & no divine intervention is required for that.
Oh does it I'm glad you know everything.

So do tell me, where does my imagination get it from?
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2013, 04:03:54 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;742804
But what does trouble me is the idea of a soul or thy humans are in some way special... I feel that puts other organisms in a very unfair position. But worse, much worse than that, it implies that a machine could never be "intelligent" or "creative" or even be considered as sentient. This to me seems absurd, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have sentient machines and for that I will argue :)
I just use the word "soul" to mean a person, as in the essence of what makes them "them" as distinct from their body, but not necessarily a thing that can exist separately or float away after they die. It means the sum of their personality, memories &c., or in other words, the mind (as opposed to the brain). This is closer to the original meaning in fact. In the New Testament the word translated as soul is "psyche" which expresses the same idea today in such words as "psychology".

The Greek philosophers did develop the idea of immortal souls as something separable from the body, which fits in with their way of thinking in terms of essences &c., but isn't necessarily what the Bible means at all. We owe a lot to Descartes for this way of thinking, too. It's not for no reason it's called Cartesian Dualism!

The other word "spirit" simply means "breath" (Gk. pneuma), that which physically sustains us alive, as in "respiration", "aspiration" &c. and of course spirits that you drink, presumably because of the vapours.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2013, 05:05:25 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;742817
...suggests animals can't be responsible for their own actions. ...social animals ... can commit acts that are considered "wrong" by their peers and are punished within their society, they are clearly responsible for their actions... To use religious language, they have sinned!
Sinning is to rebel against God, not society. God never told animals to do or not to do anything, so nothing is "wrong" for them.

I just hope there are mosquito nets in heaven.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 05:07:41 PM by Mrs Beanbag »
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2013, 05:20:25 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;742820
That assumes you are an authority on what god decided to disclose to you and the animals... It seems like an arrogant position to me, I prefer not to assume I know everything :)
It's a good point, I never caught my dog reading the Bible but maybe there is divine inspiration in some of the things he sniffs.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2013, 07:11:28 PM »
We created machines so their contract is with us.

I don't have a problem with the idea of sentient machines though, but the ethical questions that would raise, I don't even know where to start.

Need another Bible.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2013, 09:30:29 PM »
Anyone here read Dune?

Butlerian Jihad!
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2013, 09:43:31 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;742860
I certainly wouldn't take the position that God : humans :: humans : robots, though - I don't know a single human being who isn't wildly unqualified for godhood.
This is what worries me about the whole transhumanism movement. We should concentrate on improving ourselves morally before we start enabling the very worst of us to acquire extraordinary abilities and power. Because it would be the very worst of us, wouldn't it, the psychopaths who got rich through fraud and embezzlement will be able to afford it; the likes of Mother Theresa wouldn't.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2013, 12:07:22 PM »
Thought is a process, not an object. There's no reason I can think of that brain cells should be able to implement a process that silicon can't.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #29 from previous page: July 29, 2013, 04:17:01 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;742934
At a fundamental level it's chemical releases caused by pattern matching.
 
Ideas that feel right match patterns that trigger chemicals that hit the pleasure sensors.
Where do these "ideas" originate from, right-feeling or otherwise? And where do the patterns come from, for them to match?
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