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Author Topic: Philosophical Question - Amiguing  (Read 38838 times)

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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« on: July 17, 2013, 12:38:46 PM »
It gives me a strange sense of smug satisfaction to know that I'm using a computer that is older than some of my friends.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 04:11:02 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;741078
No but if you would put in the same engine as the bugati then you would blast the bugati from the road :-)
You would blast yourself from the road, I suspect.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 02:36:59 PM »
Quote from: Megamig;741207
Lets put it this way. Using sex as a metaphor
Um no, let's not put it that way.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 05:32:48 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741233
That question is impossible to answer without knowing whether or not there is more than just the physical universe.
I don't even know how that would help.

Either everything is deterministic, in which case no. Or some things are non-deterministic, in which case... still no. Being ruled by the "roll of a dice" is no more free than being ruled by cold, hard logic.

Actually I think it's logic that sets us free, not any ability to act arbitrarily. If you do something at random, it's not really a "choice", is it? It's not a decision unless you *made* it, by thinking. But the difference between thinking and simply calculating, like a machine...

A machine is a fixed process. A mind is a self-modifying process. We create ourselves as we go along, with a little help from randomness to shake us out of local minima.

But someone just had to ask, didn't they?
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 06:27:34 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741239
To Mrs Beanbag:

You're talking about the physical universe, where randomness already seems to exist. Some examples of that are radioactive decay, and the location of an electron in an atom's electron shell. Both are described by probabilities, and may well be truly random.
My point is that randomness doesn't give us any free will, any more than determinism does.
Quote
I'm talking about things like the soul: Are we souls, or just automatons? Do we act through the brain, or are we what's in our brains? And also: What's the nature of the origin of everything? And of course: What is everything in the first place? Pretty hard to answer, don't you agree?
My other point is that even if there were something beyond the physical Universe, then whatever that was, it would either be deterministic itself, or not. But either way it doesn't help us.

Suppose we do have "souls". Then we have to answer, how does that work then? Are souls automatons? Or does your soul have a soul as well? See also Homunculus argument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument

Regarding "true randomness" and knowing all the variables in the Universe, everyone should read up on Bell's Theorem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell%27s_theorem
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2013, 07:32:27 PM »
Quote from: Thorham;741244
It might if it's not deterministic or random.
It's one or the other, surely?

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I mean that we are souls, not have them, and that being one is the end of the line. As to how that would work, who knows. That's the problem with those existential questions, they're very hard, if not impossible, to answer.
Right. I just don't see how "being a soul" is any more likely to answer the question than "being a physical object". What exactly is it about "souls" that make them different from ordinary matter, such that they can have free will, but physical objects can't?

You say, well that's the problem isn't it, it's impossible to know. But surely that's because we've just made a word up to cover up the gap in the knowledge, stuck a label on "the thing that answers the problem" even though we don't know what that thing is. We need to define our terms. If we can't define "free will" in terms of comprehensible processes, it doesn't mean anything at all.

"Free will" is actually two terms, "will" and "free". "Will" is the difficult one for me. I understand "free" by analogy to turing completeness. The opposite of freedom is constraint. A specialised system is constrained in what it can and can't do. A general purpose computer, however, is not. It can calculate anything calculable. Such a computer need not be made out of anything physically special - it could as well be made out of ball bearings running down tracks than out of silicon-based electronics. Or you could make a computer out of "souls" (in something like a reversal of the Chinese Room experiment, a live person could process inputs according to strict instructions and be indistinguishable from a computer). It's the process that matters, not the matter that processes.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2013, 09:45:59 PM »
Maybe it just comes down to words but to me random just means non-deterministic.

I think the sticking point is the difficulty of imagining how high-level freedom can be an emergent property of low-level determinism. The laws of physics only determine how atoms (or quarks or whatever) move about and interact with each other. They're not writing the script of a huge drama, like the Greeks maybe imagined the Gods sitting down and doing.

Maybe you could call it free will by obfuscation, but there's also another thing to consider - must we "externalise" the determinism, as something that influences or constrains us from outside, rather than being a defining part of who we are? I am the one who is writing this, no matter what the intricate chain of cause and effect that lead up to it.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2013, 10:22:18 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;741262
Special compared to what though?  The human body is not more special than the body of any other animal, it's just flesh and bones. :)
Speak for yourself.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2013, 11:20:37 AM »
Well let us just say that human beings aren't quite the purely rational, utility-maximising beings certain Enlightenment philosophers and modern economists would like.

Also anyone who doesn't like the Amiga has no soul.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2013, 03:52:53 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;741389
While god might have triggered the big bang, none of the large organised religions have dared throw away all their theories about how the universe was created in light of scientific evidence. Instead they have spent a long time trying to disprove science to show that their god exists (which is a logical fallacy but hey).
Oh are we doing a religion argument afterall, now?

Well let me just point this out, while we're on the subject. Since Aristotle and up until the 20th century the rationalist scientific consensus was that the Universe had existed forever (hence Einstein's famous "mistake" of adding the cosmological constant into his theories to allow for that), whereas the Bible stated it had a beginning. But then Hubble discovered the expansion of the Universe and the big bang theory was born. So faith might be irrational but it can still turn out to be right about some things.

Nevertheless focusing on God "setting off the big bang" at the beginning in an argument from first cause is a bit of a distraction. Time is a property of the Universe which God is supposed to be beyond, see Philo of Alexandria pre-empt modern arguments by about 2000 years in his commentary on the book of Genesis.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2013, 10:26:08 PM »
Quote from: Linde;741508
A lot of animals have unique capabilities beyond those of humans. They may not be able to converse in abstract concept, but then again, who decided that that was such a remarkable ability? That's right, we did that ourselves. In a world guided by simple morals, we use those concepts that distinguish us from everyone else as an absolute measure of worth to rationalize our belief of superiority. This not only goes for animals, but for other cultures and human ethnicities as well.
and computers and operating systems, ho ho, well there's that question answered then.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2013, 02:23:33 PM »
Quote from: psxphill;741577
But why? The revelations were supposed to be giving knowledge about facts, twisting the facts to make them understandable & never following it up when scientific knowledge has caught up seems a little strange.
I don't know what facts you think revelation is about. (Or what form a revelation takes, because I don't imagine it was verbal.) Religion isn't about science, it's about right and wrong and human behaviour. It doesn't really matter if it says the Earth is flat, if the point is that you shouldn't push people off the edge of it.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2013, 05:55:14 PM »
Quote from: commodorejohn;741608
Interesting assertion. Tell me more - which ones? How have we discovered this?
Here's a famous one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_%28gorilla%29

Also Elephants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_cognition
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2013, 06:52:52 PM »
Quote from: ChaosLord;741615
I have performed many experiments which show that various animals and plants are more intelligent than 50% of humans.
Did you get them to leave Youtube comments?

Someone was telling me the other day that one of the most important developments in human physiology is the shoulder. It means that we can throw things.

Crows are very intelligent, too. I'd love to know how a crow's mind works. Obviously their brains are physically quite small but amazingly effective nonetheless. They have been observed bending wires into shapes to solve puzzles, and various other things.
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Offline Mrs Beanbag

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Re: Philosophical Question - Amiguing
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2013, 10:17:32 AM »
There's another reason I remember reading somewhere, that dolphins don't have advanced civilisation: it's impossible to do chemistry underwater.

Also here is a video of a crow having fun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dWw9GLcOeA
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