Philosophical Question - Amiguing

[nicholas]

Throwing insults means you lose. Why be hateful?

I wasn't aware that correcting your wrong assumptions about Islam is considered "throwing insults".

You know that I don't believe in any religion invented by man and never will

Neither do I.

, no matter how long it's been going on or what their religious texts say. I understand that I can't change your mind & I don't particularly want to.

I don't want to convert you to Islam either.  Even if I did it's not up to me but The One.

However,  you have made several incorrect assumptions about authentic Islam and when people do this I will always correct them.  I'm not trying to convince you what I believe is true, but correct your assumptions about what I believe.

I think it's important to have things you believe in and I wouldn't want to take that from you even if I could. However I do enjoy finding out about other peoples viewpoints.

Glad to hear it and ditto.
 

Saying who came up with the theory of evolution doesn't answer my question. How did God influence our natural selection

Why does it matter how He did or did not do it? The facts are it does happen and is still happening today. Evolution has not stopped.

I'm a Shi'a so this is a particularly important part of my theology, in that my Imam(pbuh) and Jesus(pbuh) will not return until the Shi'a have evolved to a much different state than we are currently in. Be that spiritual, physical or both.

, did he aim for us or were we a mistake & how does it tie up with the Quran?

Adam(pbuh) (The famous one) was not the first hominid on this earth, not even close to being the first.  There are narrations that state something along the lines of 50,000 species of Adams came before he did.

If you can't have a civil conversation then there is no point.
I found this http://thedistortedreligion.wordpress.com/2010/06/27/the-quranic-concept-of-evolution-part-i-natural-selection-or-divine-will/ which kinda actually says that while the Quran says that evolution happened, it wasn't natural selection as it was god that controlled the process. I don't know how accurate the site is (it appears to be written by an atheist anyway), but if it's true then I would like to know how god did that.

I've given that site a quick look over and it appears to be written by someone who follows a relatively modern cult known by various names but usually Quran Aloner's or 19ers.  They believe in a new "prophet" called Rashad Khalifa and that all Muslims before them are infidels.  Not unlike the Wahabbi cult currently occupying Hijaz (It's not Saudi Arabia and never will be)

I feel like I shouldn't have to state this but the Qur'an is a book of theology and ethics not a peer-reviewed scientific journal.  It is a book of inctructions on how to live ones life and also contains historical records.

Also, the Qur'an is nothing without explanation of it's verses.  Those qualified to explain it's verses are the immediate blood family of Prophet Muhammad and no one else.  Particularly not random cultists and wahabbis on the interwebs.

http://al-islam.org
http://en.rafed.net/islamic-books-magazine

[nicholas]

Thanks Nik,
I don't have any problem reconciling religion with natural selection either.
Apparently I now have to accept the weight of a lot of other believers with rigid interpretations.

Rigid thinking does nobody any good.

I truly am worried sick about my son when he's an adult and I'm no longer around as I think his inability to see things from anyone else's POV will severely hamper him and make him very vulnerable.

[nicholas]

There seems to be a lot of worry about why God didn't tell us exactly how long it took. Well firstly because it doesn't even matter. It's just a narrative device. Obsessing over the literal meaning of it completely misses the point. Actually if anything it's an etiological myth that explains why we have a seven-day week with one day off, as such it gives us far more useful information about how to live our lives than "13.8 billion years" does.

This latter we were able to find out by ourselves anyway, which is part of the fun of existing. You'll be complaining next that God didn't do your crossword puzzle for you.

Whether God "controlled" evolution or not, I don't know, or why it matters. God created the laws of nature, so He created evolution. But if He does control it at all, well mutations are essentially the result of quantum probabilities, which due to Bell's theorem aren't predictable using any information in the Universe, so if they're not truly random (which to my mind is absurd) this information must be coming from outside the Universe.

I like this.

[nicholas]

I too, believe that will inevitably happen.
And, sorry Star Trek fans, but our bodies aren't well suited to other environments.
But, hopefully, I won't live to witness it.

Finally, I think the term caretakers is more in how we treat the planet.
Since we can't really control our eventual fate, but we can do a lot of damage.

Caretaker is what is meant in the narration I mentioned earlier when I translated it as viceregent.

[nicholas]

God didn't write the bible.
People wrote the bible.
My bible is written in English as are most.

I doubt that very much, if I had to gamble on it I'd guess at Spanish.

[nicholas]

And it's blatantly obvious he's correct. The fact that people still believe in those books is utterly astounding. A bunch of people a few thousand years ago wrote some books saying that they were inspired by some god. Oh really?

'Blatantly obvious' to you perhaps.

You'll find out for sure one day.....

[nicholas]

Actually, if he's right, he won't find out.
He'll just die.

But I think the answer is all around us screaming for attention and people like him are just deaf to the sound.

What I find most comical is that many atheists seem intent on converting believers to their way but I personally couldn't give a damn about trying to convert someone to my way.  I don't see the point in even trying.

"Those who reject Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) are deaf and dumb in darkness. Allah sends astray whom He wills and He guides on the Straight Path whom He wills." Al-Qur'an 6:39

I'll always answer questions people ask me about what I believe and I'll always correct incorrect assumptions people have but thats about the length and breadth of it for me.

edit:

If I'm wrong then I'll just die and my life will not have been worse off for believing either.

[nicholas]

Why you put as examples the quran?, and what it has to do with the Amiga, or computing in general?. At least one thing in common is sure, the zealots that preach that his choice is teh only and one.

Because if you'd bothered to read the entire thread certain people made false claims about Islam and I replied.

To you your way and to me mine.

Next!

[nicholas]

Many? That's a bit harsh

<=49.9% then?

As long as one's beliefs don't conflict with causing someone else any harm, I have to agree with you

Oooh I'm so tempted to quote another verse. lol

[nicholas]

I wrote a long reply and then scrapped it because I really couldn't give a toss whether you do or do not believe in anything.  It's irrelevant to me.

[nicholas]

Ultimately everyone has to accept the nature of the reality they perceive around them, and it isn't necessarily a bad thing that the views may be different.

Though sometimes I feel a little sorry for the old Saxon/Nordic/Greek/Roman/etc deities that almost no one believes in them any more! :-(

They just renamed them as Jesus.

[nicholas]

There is divine revelation in everything from ancient texts to beehives. How could there not be, if God pervades all things? Nikola Tesla credits a vision in the sky for his invention of the electric motor. I'd wager there are even bits of divine revelation in the Linux kernel.

I can identify with it myself. There are times when I really don't feel like I can take all the credit for my own work, times when I really can't account for where an idea came from, or when I seemed to know something that I had no earthly right to know.

Indeed.

Surely there are signs for those that reflect.

[nicholas]

It comes from your imagination & no divine intervention is required for that. If my thoughts are guided by god then he seems to be doing something different with me than he is with his believers.
 
The brain is complex and regularly does things without us being aware of it and can't necessarily comprehend how it does it.
 
The Hensel conjoined twins are pretty good at volleyball, despite each of their brains only being able to control one half of their body.
 
http://blog.zap2it.com/frominsidethebox/2012/08/abby-and-brittany-hensel-5-things-you-should-know-about-the-conjoined-twins-from-tlcs-new-show.html
 
Now I find that pretty amazing.

Now that we are truly way off topic I thought I'd mention something truly amazing.

Both my parents have a twin each.  Both of them literally feel the pain their twin is experiencing even when hundreds of miles away, both emotional and physical pain.

My Mum went through 11hrs of labour pains whilst she was still a virgin when her twin gave birth 1 month prematurely and they were in different countries at the time.

I find that amazing.

[nicholas]

Since this is an off topic thread, I will continue

I'm not going to discuss the possibility of a god/gods/etc and the validity or otherwise of the various religions... My feelings are well known and I have little interest in changing others views

But what does trouble me is the idea of a soul or thy humans are in some way special... I feel that puts other organisms in a very unfair position. But worse, much worse than that, it implies that a machine could never be "intelligent" or "creative" or even be considered as sentient. This to me seems absurd, I think it's perfectly reasonable to have sentient machines and for that I will argue

I can't speak for other religions but according to Islamic belief all the animals have souls.

The difference is that humans can sin, other animals can't so they all go to paradise.

[nicholas]

Again, I feel that is a bit arrogant (trying to think of a less pejorative word here), it suggests animals can't be responsible for their own actions. We can see clearly in the higher primates and other social animals, that individuals can commit acts that are considered "wrong" by their peers and are punished within their society, they are clearly responsible for their actions... To use religious language, they have sinned!

A sin is a breach of a contract between man and God. No such contract exists between the other animals and God.

[nicholas]

My use of language was remiss then, I still have a problem with the human centric concepts that put animals and machine subservient to them

Machines are subservient perhaps but not animals.