Should Muslims be forced to carry special ID?

[Cymric]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
I know the ausweis is forced upon me. But I don't give a sh*t. I do not support stasi methods. I don't give a rat's a*se about people feeling 'unsafe'.

Unfortunately, the government must take a different viewpoint. It has the welfare of an entire nation to think of, and not just your own puny life. You may not give a rat's a*se about people feeling 'unsafe': that does not mean that the government should.

Now whether the people are genuinely unsafe, and whether carrying ID around does solve something, is another discussion. There is a lot of silly nonsense floating around, as you are never safe: some determined nutjob can always go on a wild killing spree where you least expect it. There is no defense against this, but people still like to pretend there is. As for carrying ID around: I  don't think it solves anything, but as most people already carry driver's licenses, mobile telephones, agendas and lots of other personal identifying equipment with them, I really don't see what all the uproar is about. Oh, people are quick to shout 'fascist practice' or 'police state', and then dream up tons of wildly speculative scenarios where the cops are forming checkpoints on busy streets to filter out people who reside in this country without a permit. Well, if that were indeed the case, what makes you think that having a proper ID would make you 'safe' in the first place?

Either way, I have no qualms with presenting a form of ID when asked politely by a law enforcement officer in circumstances which are indeed tense or unusual---uproar, demonstration, murder investigation in the house next to me, and so forth. I have never been asked to do so. In fact, I have to present more ID at the post office to claim my mail, or at the gates of companies I visit even to have a quick conversation with someone---and noone has a problem with that. But behold the outcry once the government asks you to carry it around. Then all of a sudden the most dreaded scenarios well up from the depths of human imagination.

In short: I side with moto. It doesn't solve anything; it makes the society only a little more safe, but there really is no harm in carrying it with you. Chances are you'll be happy to have it with you in case you do need it all of a sudden.


Now what is really scary is this nation's decision to track mobile and internet usage for 18 months, a full year longer than the EU-recommended 6, and then expect all data carriers to make the investments themselves to comply with the law. There is no known program which can sift through these mountains of data, even if it is just the routing information (and not the actual data). You'd need a very powerful supercomputer to analyse it, too. Who has and controls access to this huge haystack is hazy to say the least; it most certainly is not decided nor verified democratically. Personally, I think that several shadowy agencies will set up honeypots around known religious or political hotspots, and then work their way from there. They cannot single these out---protected by freedom of speech laws---so instead, everyone now becomes a suspect. Orwell would have been proud.

[Cymric]

'Elke Nederlander wordt geacht de wet te kennen'. It's that simple, Speel. You don't agree with the law? Then don't vote for parties who instated it; or organise a powerful lobby to get it changed. Be happy that you at least have that right over here. Obviously, most people don't care enough to put in time and effort to do so, or are secretly in agreement with the politicians who spin tales about increased safety as it would probably mean less trouble from street thugs ('kutmarrokaantjes'). I can't be bothered myself, really. It's 25 grams of paper or plastic which I'll likely need for other purposes anyway. And I always lose the damned thing in mountains of papers on my desk, so it makes a twisted sort of sense to put the ID into the bag I always carry around.

@KThunder: over here a driver's license is not official ID. Your passport is.

[Cymric]

Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Excuse me, Who said I voted CDA?

Noone. I merely explained 'Democracy 101' to you.

And if you must be happy because you have some degree of democracy, you can enforce everything on us. That's a terribly lousy argument, which I am not used of you.

It's called 'Democracy 101'. The majority decides what will happen; the people get to decide who is the majority---or, more precisely, gets to decide who is most likely going to be in the majority. That is simply a realistic argument, and nothing you do or say will change that---therefore you had best get used to it. You cannot pick and mix when you require a majority and when a minority to pass a law through parliament; and most especially cannot rely only on Speel's judgement. Nor on mine, for that matter. It would be cool, of course, and I'd like to pretend I would be a Wise Beneficial Dictator For Life, but it's not a good idea. In a democracy, you've got to take the good with the bad; frankly, I'm surprised you didn't pick this up.

Does that mean you have to agree with a decision made by the majority? No, of course not. That's why there is something known as 'opposition'. In the Netherlands, it's usually not very effective, and only accomplishes something when there is dissent amongst the parties making up the majority. In case of the ID law, it obviously wasn't enough. Unfortunately for the opposition, a majority decision is binding.

And really, I expected also a counterargument of my previous post from you.

There's not much to counter, is there? Of course there will be a lot of fines; it's called 'upholding the law'. You can be very principal in the matter and decide to leave your ID at home, but you had better be prepared to put your money where your mouth is in case you are caught. It won't do you much good to argue that you don't believe in the law in that case: that's also a lesson you should have picked up from Democracy 101.

There's tons of laws I don't agree with---some with far more important and invasive consequences than this silly ID-thing. Hence my saying: don't like the law? Then don't vote for the parties who instated it, and organise a lobby to get it changed. Run a grassroots campaign instigating 'burgerongehoorzaamheid' to swamp the legislative branch with silly cases so that the politicians have no choice but to alter the law. And so forth. And I expect you to provide me with a good reason why we haven't seen such things yet if ID law was indeed such a barbaric practise as many little clubs and societies wanted us to believe it was.

By the way, I found out that a driver's license counts for proper ID too; only in some cases is a passport required. Well, I always carry my DL with me in my wallet, whether or not I am required to do so by ID law. I want to drive a car whenever I can, and for that I need a license.