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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« on: March 27, 2004, 03:47:30 PM »
Quote

blobrana wrote:
Hi rinard,
But have they discovered anything else in the intervening 500 years? :-)

Back then science was `embraced` by most of the main religions, hehe, it`s just that science in the west managed to break away from christian doctrine...


Actually, they discovered plenty since then. Long before europe was enlightened, during the peak of the islamic civilization, they

In no particular order

Invented algebra
Expanded on classical greek geometry
Discovered the laws of reflection and refraction (long before snell) and made some of the first lenses

Charted the stars and built the first planetariums (you should know that one)

Studied human anatomy in detail, discovered the use of neat alcohol for sterilizing things/cleaning wounds (their medical literature was required reading here for 500 years)

They also built some amazing mechanical/water clocks, autonoma etc, a good deal of which still survives today.

And way more that I forgot since :-(

However, I believe the guy was talking *specifically* about things detailed in the Quran, which is some 1400 years old, not 500 ;-)
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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2004, 03:30:27 AM »
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bloodline wrote:
But Karlos... the key thing here is not what you know... but what you do with it.

Having research a little, the Quran has not been free of "editing" in much the same way that all religious texts have been "edited" to suit the needs of those who espouse them.



Well, given that it exists in the and style language it was originally written in and memorised in its entirety by countless millions of people (known as Hafiz) throught history, I beg to differ.

I used to think it wsa subject to the same "revisionism" as translations of the Bible etc., but its not especially the case. In fact, it's one reason why muslims are expected to learn the language rather than translate it to another language so that the original meaning isn't lost.

There is a Quran from the around the 7th century in a museum in Turkey, it's Arabic is word for word identical to the present day copies available.

As for "what you do with your knowledge" I agree that all their early progress was ultimately in vein in that it was largely lost with the collapse of their civilization (bloody crusades again!!! :-x).

However, without their efforts, we'd be a lot worse off than we are. Just think what algebra (specifically the ability to render problems into mathematical abstract) and arabic numbering system (0-9) has done for us. We'd be doing long division with bloody roman numerals otherwise :lol:

I suggest you read up on the achievements of the islamic civilization from 620AD to 1000AD, it's a truly eye opening period of history that we are never taught anything about :-(
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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2004, 06:30:16 AM »
Don't worry, I'm sure the present administration will put a stop to that :lol:
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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2004, 05:42:32 PM »
Wow, you guys need to lighten up on the prejudices a bit. Take off the "all organized religion is antiscientific dogmatic crap" head and stick the "ok, lets be objective" head on for a moment :lol:

Just because you don't like a religion is no reason to deride everything it says regardless of context, or refute that people of that faith ever developed anything that wasn't already known. Thats simply insulting the work of countless people who tried to unravel the world around them just because you think that they arent qualified to have an objective mind because they were religious.

If you are going to bash something, at least study it closely first, else you can end up looking an arse - just like I did :lol:

However, its common for people to avoid doing just that for fear they may actually find some things they agree with.
Better to stay willfully ignorant.
@Kenny

Whilst I agree totally that its generally possible to massage specific meaning from just about anything if you try hard enough, I can honestly say that I have never had to stretch my imagination when studying quranical references.

One of the first ones I found all by myself was a reference to what required no great leaps of intuition. I can't remember the exact verse but I could find it again if I were pressed. Now, the translation perhaps has modified the meaning, but I've asked native arabic speakers *exactly* what does it mean to them and the agreement was spot on.

The translated verse read (from memory) "Praise be to Allah who has set mountains deep into the earth as pegs, lest it should quake."

We may differ on opinion here, but to me the above isn't particularly vague at all.

Now, as platetectonic theory describes, mountains (which a bit like icebergs tend to go much deeper into the mantle than they poke above the ground), are formed as plates buckle and fold as one is gradually pushed beneath the other. There are plenty of eathquake prone places where plates are pushing directly against each other, but neither has began to fold into a mountain range.

There are innumerable other examples, some slightly less specific, some slightly more.

Far from being a anti scientific religion, it actually instructs its followers to go an seek knowledge and learn how the universe and everything in it works.

Just because at this period in history people of the faith at large don't seem unduly concerned to do this does not mean the instruction isn't there.

@Bloodline

You are incorrect on the general assumption that all faiths of the era depended solely on pre-existing knoweldge, but I will let you off because its a massively common misconception that even I had.

Regarding algebra, you are correct only to a point.

The modern form of abstract algebra (al-jabr), using operators and symbols to define indeterminable quantities, was developed by a the arab mathematician (living in Baghdad, then an established centre of learning) Mohammed ibn-Musa al-Khowarizmi. He wrote a famous book in about 825 AD  called "Hidab al-jabr wal-muqubala" in which he documents the symbolic (operator based) representation of equations, their transposition and use in problem solving etc.

It's historically documented and verified all over the place.

Now, that is not to say, as you correctly point out that analytical forms of arithmetic did not already exist and nobody denies the contribution of greek and Hindu mathematicians. The latter introduced 2 fundamental concepts, specifically the number zero and the negative number scale.

However, the analytical arithmetic used by the classical greek mathematicans was not directly comparable.

To paraphrase from a book on the evolution of albebra "Greek mathematical thought and the origin of algebra"

The Greek concept of mathematical objects was based upon the notion of arithmos, but this cannot be thought of as a concept of "general magnitude" i.e. "x", the unknown quantity. It never means anything other than "a definite number of definite objects," or an "assemblage of things counted".

Likewise, geometric figures and curves, commensurable and incommensurable magnitudes, ratios, have their own special ontology which directs mathematical inquiry and its methods.

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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2004, 09:23:10 PM »
"Humanists recognize that it is only when people feel free to think for themselves, using reason as their guide, that they are best capable of developing values that succeed in satisfying human needs and serving human interests"

Well, when you use only reason as your guide, you can justify an awful lot of things which may make scientific sense but are clearly unethical.

As an extreme example, to improve the human condition, you could sterilize all those with hereditary defects, or carriers of defective genes to end the suffering those genes would inflict on future generations.

For those of the existing generations who are afflicted with untreatable conditions that severely reduce their quality of life, you could give them the option of termination.

For those unable to make the decision due to severe mental impairment, you could delegate the choice to their nearest kin. There is nothing scientifically unreasonable about this approach. Enormous amounts of money would be saved which could be directed elsewhere and many life threatening hereditary diseases would be eliminated, for the benefit of all mankind.

Now, there isn't a sane person here who would argue that that is totally wrong, cold, cruel and downright evil even. But why?
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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2004, 02:10:03 PM »
@Bloodline,

Er, I was actually defending it, not bashing it :lol: - I believe the bashing commenced immediately yourself and kenny joined the discussion with remarks like:

"Islam is just another religion that attacks intellectual integrity in favour of dogma and unquestioning obedience to scripture and so is against science." (implying you cannot be a muslim and have a scientific mind)

"All the major religions of that region inherited all their "science" from other cultures of the time." (implying nobody of the era was able to originate anything)

;-)

Moving on, the issues I have raised last time are religious as well as social. You will probably find that people of a religious bent would find the notion I raised more offensive by far than those who just see it as simply unethical.

For example, optional termination of those with a poor quality of life is the whole euthanasia argument. Now, I'm not personally stating if it is right or wrong. For many, this is a moral grey area, but for a great deal of people whose moral sense of right and wrong are religously influenced, it's deemed unquestinably wrong.

Your abstraction, whilst demonstrable in modern society, is not absolute and never will be as long as religion exists it will shape to some extent the moral values people hold.

As for religion has committed great autrocities, well I can't argue.

However, as Gadget points out, history has also proven beyond any doubt that people will commit autrocities utterly regardless of any religious influence. Look at Stalins "purges" for instance.

Anyhow, this is all grossly off topic now. I believe the original poster was simply pointing out that there are revelations in the quran that s/he (and evidentally a great many others) finds miraculous in that some of it seems to be beyond the scope of the existing knowledge (even if you include all the Greek, Persian etc.) of the time.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2004, 01:56:51 AM »
@Matt

Don't worry about it :-) You find religion ludicrous and thats totally within your rights. I find many things ludicrous myself. I only defend religions against what I see as unfair / incorrect criticism, like some the points in this thread. Stuff like this is pretty interesting when you dig into it.

Personally, I like to remain open minded. If the hypothetical scenario Gadget mentions came to pass and the sum total of scientific knowledge were to prove the existance of God, that would be truly wonderous IMHO. However, there would always be people willing to refute the find, just as there would be people ready to believe if the opposite scenario played out.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2004, 12:37:14 PM »
I think this thread should have been moved to CH/Religion & philosophy 39 posts ago ;-)
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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Scientific Miracles
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2004, 01:45:38 AM »
@mdwh2

Hey dude, that wasn't actually my opinion, it was supposed to provoke some thought on the idea that if one uses only what seems to be a logical and rational approach to all matters, you can justify an awful lot of things that many people (myself included) feel are clearly wrong/unethical.

I was also putting forward the implication that people who are devout would probably find the hypothetical situation I was describing more than just simply "unethical"...

For example, the suggestions made were to improve future generations physical well being by attempting to remove what could be demonstrated scientifically to be defective genes from the species. That's what I meant by "not scientifically unreasonable" (which wasnt the best turn of phrase, but meant to imply makes sense logically). I also state that there probably isnt a sane person who would be comfortable with that suggestion, but why?

Simply because it is unethical, was the answer I was hoping for...

The question arises, where do ethics come from? How do you define what is ethical and what is not?

Are ethics inherently shaped by existing (in particular, religious) concepts of moral / amoral?
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