New project for the benefit of all classic computing!

[TheRogue]

Hey guys,

So, here's the news. I'm currently tooling up for PCB and enclosure production. I have decided to give back to the community by offering a different sort of service. I am going to be offering on demand production of a variety of classic computing hardware. Production will start with boards, and enclosures will follow shortly. I am going to offer many different open source pieces of hardware to start with, and I may attempt recreation or cloning of certain devices as time goes on.

Products that will be available initially and as time goes on include things like IEC2SD, SIO2SD, IDE interfaces for various machines, C64/VIC RS-232 interfaces, NetUSBee, UltraSatan, MSX slot expanders, BBC SD adapters and sideways ROM expansions, Thylacine USB (redesigned to eliminate the vast amount of wasted space!), clones of out-of-production cards (will have some delaminated and mapped for cloning), high-spec power supplies for a variety of systems including discounts for sending in old enclosures, ATX adapters for various older machines including regulators for any voltages not available from an ATX2.x supply, blank prototyping cards in various form factors (Zorro half and full length, A500 bus, Apple ][, Commodore 64 cart/userport, VIC-20 cart, Atari 8-bit cart, etc), various ROMs, GALs, and the like, repair services for certain hardware, full upgrade services for certain hardware (such as a CPU, ROM, Oscillator, GAL, and Cache upgrade for a TransWarpGS), affordable IDE/SATA/CF/SD to SCSI boards, STF RAM expansions, custom cabling, full service one off boards (send a schematic or layout and a parts list, get a finished board back) and much much more. For now, I'd like to hear from you what devices you guys would like me to offer initially so I know what components to stock up on.

The inspiration for this project when ReactiveMicro (formerly GSE-Reactive) shut down a while back. I saw how stranded the Apple II community was, and I thought, why not pick up where Henry left off, but since I'm a proud user of many classic platforms I figured it should be for every classic platform what ReactiveMicro was for the Apple II.

Also, just to be clear, this is not wishful thinking, a pipe dream, or vapour. I recently lost my day job, and I have already started purchasing equipment for this venture. The ROM/PLD programmer arrived today, the EPROM eraser is on its way, the PCD equipment will be here by the end of November, the electroplating gear (for through-hole plating) is being constructed, the box break and sheetmetal equipment will be purchased in short order, the vacuum pump desoldering station is in the shop, the rework station is on its way, and so on...

Let me know what you think. Questions, comments, and suggestions requested! Let's hear what you have to say! Also, if anyone wants to help me name this venture, I'd be glad to hear your suggestions!

[TheRogue]

I really like the idea of an FPGA core Amiga in a new Amiga-esque enclosure. This is something I would really like to work towards. The sheetmetal equipment I am looking at would handle something like that no problem. I'm not going to promise something like that immediately when the doors open, more like something to work towards over the coming months. I also have to say I like the idea of a new accelerator, an 060 one. The idea of having a core that is adaptable for multiple systems is brilliant too. Its another thing I would love to work towards. Again, don't expect miracles, there must be time for development, even as a full time endevour. I am going to be offering what I can as soon as I can, and original hardware will follow. I am looking at having some multilayer cards delaminated and mapped to make future cloning efforts much easier. I have to say that a new PowerUp board is something I'll bet people would climb over eachother to acquire, although I don't know that its realistically possible. Certainly a clone of the older hardware is probably impossible, due to component sourcing issues, but a new board compatible with the standard may be possible farther down the line. For now though, what do you all see as the piece or pieces of hardware you would like to see clones/successors of? Like I said I will be offering the Thylacine immediately or shortly thereafter, but it will be redesigned to eliminate all the empty space to lower production costs and as such deliver you a cheaper product. You'd be surprised how much of a savings you can get when you cut down on all the dead space on that card. Anyway, keep the suggestions coming!

[TheRogue]

We want an updated board like an Apollo 060 or Blizzard 060 for A1200 but instead of being limited to a tiny little 128MB stick, make it use 1GB or 2GB.  And instead of a 50Mhz 060 it could use one of those newfangled 90Mhz 060s.  The 90Mhz 060s can allegedly be tuned to 100Mhz or 110Mhz.  But I write 90Mhz for safety.

All Amigas throughout history have been starved of memory.  They can all easily address 4GB of memory but nobody makes anything to give us a lot of high speed RAM.

And no, plugging RAM into super slow motion Zorro 2 slots does not count as "high speed RAM".

We need 90Mhz RAM feeding a 90Mhz CPU.

We need 1GB so we can run stuff like 7zip and any random modern web-browser.

Ok, the people have been heard. The arrangements will be made and the project will be started as soon as possible.

I can personally comment on the new mask revisions of the 68060. I have one in my Atari Falcon and you really can successfully run them at 100MHz+. Mine has been clocked at 100MHz for ages and it runs rock solid.

Hmm if it works with everything from a 1000/500 up it would be a huge seller. Add a tower case/separate keyboard and mouse kit and it would sell like hot cakes.

I love it, love everything about it. Tower upgrade kits are something I love. I have built several of my own using all the wrong tools, and they still turned out pretty good. Using the tools I'm buying now, I think I could do something pretty cool in this department, so let's add that one to the list: Tower upgrade kits for a range of platforms including the complete line of Amigas!

Keep the suggestions coming!

[TheRogue]

So, here's what I'm thinking. It seems like from all over the place accelerators and RTG cards are the most in demand. Seems to me that building an accelerator with an RTG card and SATA built in would be the best idea. That way regardless of what system you use it on, from an A500 to an A4000 , you have access to RTG and SATA as well. I know that by that logic everything from ehternet to sound should also be on board but I think once you start doing that you get a project stalled by creeping featurism. Perhaaps it might be wise to include some sort of high speed expansion header to add things on at a later date.

I think I need to clear something up cause I'm getting some confusion from some people. All multilayer boards or things with superfine traces will not be fabricated in house. The equipment for things like that is out of my reach. Only the simple doublesided boards and flexible boards suitable for keyboard membranes and the like will be done in house on demand. Things like accelerators and so one will be fabricated through contractors. The point is that for simple stuff I can build it on demand with quick turn around. The electroplating gear is simple stuff for plated through holes. The boards will be produced with different methods depending on what they require. I have factored all the costs in and this is the way that works for me.

@haywirepc: That is way beyond what I'm capable of. You're not going to get speeds like that from an FPGA, that is going to the realm of having custom chips fabricated. I don't have the resources or the knowledge to design a microprocessor from scratch. The only way I could see something like that POSSIBLY being done is to use some other processor (x86, PPC, ARM) running some sort ofassembly language 060 emulation code. Even then, as matthey said, you won't be able to address more then 2GB of RAM.

@Akiko: I absolutely won't forget the CD32 either. Maybe we can look at a new CD32 accelerator/expansion system.

The tower kits from Elbox are ok, I have one for my A4000. The problem is I had to modify it to take my CSPPC/CVPPC. I would want to design one that everything fits without shoehorning. We'll see how it goes.

So to summarize: The design for a new accelerator will most likely consist of a final mask revision 060, 1-2GB RAM, an RTG 3D card, SATA, POSSIBLY USB, and an expansion header for new addons. Sound good?

In the meantime, keep the suggestions coming, and if anyone knows of any hardware for any system that has schematics/layouts and code available, I will add them to the list!

[TheRogue]

Don't get me wrong, more RAM is always good and as long as it's not a factor in the price of hardware, the more the merrier. However...

You'd need to do more than write an additional allocator. The moment anything allocated above the 2GB boundary, you can't guarantee it won't end up being passed by reference off to something that will assume it can't have been and do something stupid thanks to signed 32-bit arithmetic.

This is exactly why I said 1GB-2GB, more likely 2GB.

[TheRogue]

Ok guys, I think some people are getting carried away and taking this in a direction that I didn't want. I can see what you guys want long-term and I will do everything I can to make it happen long term, but I need to think short-term as well. What I want from you now is what do you want NOW. What sort of thing, a realistic thing that can be done some time soon would you like produced? Think small. Don't think super-high-tech-revolutionize-way-we-use-our-Amigas, think small upgrade boards, think little projects. What's something simple that you'd like to have? Anything that's no longer in production that could be resurrected, like I am doing for the Thylacine? I promise you I will take all of your suggestions into consideration and really give a go at a fancy new accelerator or even replacement motherboard, but this is a long way away still, several months at least. Also, let me say again for those who missed it:

I AM NOT GOING TO PRODUCE COMPLEX MULTILAYER BOARDS WITH SUPERFINE TRACES IN HOUSE.

I think this has been a misunderstood issue and one that has taken away all the credibility of this project in the eyes of those who really understand PCB fabrication. I am well aware of what is involved in producing such things, and I have no desire to either spend many tens of thousands (at least) on the equipment or try and attempt to laminate my own multi-layer boards (the concept makes me shiver even thinking about it) so banish that thought. I am fully aware of how much cheaper it is to do it through a company, and I absolutely will be doing that. For simple small projects involving single or double sided boards with no internal layers, I will be doing the production myself because for single boards or small runs I have worked out I can save money and pass the savings on to you. If I get an order for 50 Thylacine boards for example, I am not going to make them all by hand, I will send them out. If I get someone who wants 1 and I have no other orders I can bundle together at the time, then I will churn it out myself because it's cheaper for me and cheaper for you.

Please don't take me as being rude, I love your suggestions and I love the ideas people have expressed, but can we please move the discussion away from the long-term and theoretical and more to the concrete short-term? I value every one of your thoughts and suggestions, but let's not get caught up on one thing and lose sight of what I'm really trying to do initially.

Thank you.

[TheRogue]

Some sort of USB solution for wedge Amigas ?
Keyboard membrane replacements ?

A USB solution for the A500 will be no problem to offer immediately, I will do up a version of the Thylacine for the A500. The 600 and 1200 will be a bit more difficult, but I think some sort of clockport solution shouldn't be very hard to accomplish.

Keyboard membranes will be offered in short order. Someone on another forum is sending me a bunch of membranes for me to either clone outright or make functional equivalents of. My equipment can already handle keyboard style membranes with no issue, so I will keep you posted as to the progress on those.

[TheRogue]

Can you do replacement pal/gal chips for 3640/040 cards? Lots of those out there that need repair.
Matter of fact, the schematics for the 3640 are available. Could be a cheap start to a cpu card project, Though there are a lot of reasons it's not a well performing card, it's still a nice bump up from stock.

Plaz

I will absolutely see about doing replacement PALs for this. I already have a programmer that handles PLDs, and I will see if I can get the JEDEC files. Any PLDs that people need I will be happy to program.

I love the idea of some sort of replacement keyboard with tactile switches. Perhaps it could even be worked out as a replacement assembly for the current models of Amiga keyboards, so people can keep the original look with a much better feel to it. Sorry I don't have much time today to reply, I am really running around. Back tomorrow with full responses to everything! In the meantime, keep those comments and suggestions coming!

[TheRogue]

Paul I'm not picking on your post at all, just referencing to add my point.....

I'd much rather see some smaller doable projects get done first, then build up to larger things if possible. I've lost count of the times we've all waited on some lofty hardware only to endlessly bash each other over the details, then watch it all end in tears yeeeears later with no product. Absolutely no offense to Rouge, but at this time I'd think the best authority on a 060 type card would be Jens. There must be good reasons he's not tackled one yet.

Rouge do you have any tangible game plan for an 060 design or starting out here from scratch?

Plaz

First of all, it's Rogue (as in highwayman), not Rouge (as in makeup) :roflmao: No harm done and please don't take that as an insult, I've just never heard that one before!

Anyway, as for a tangible game plan, I only have some simple block diagrams I drew up when talk of the accelerator came up, I have been busy running down all sorts of designs for other computers, looking into PAL/GAL decapping and board delaminating services, and getting information from owners of hardware and so forth to try and get something small and tangible available as soon as possible for as many different communities as possible. Basically I was drawing up just simple block diagrams for possible ways of putting the hardware together. I am at my inlaws house right now, but when I get home I can scan them for you if you want. Here is one that I did electronically:



This is the extent of the planning that I have done on the accelerator as of yet. Like I said, it's still very early in the game to have something more then this. I think this accurately represents what people are looking for though, so at least it's a place to go from.

[TheRogue]

this thread is too promissing to be true. allow me to stand back till anything, just anything, is confirmed and released, then i ll applaud..

in the meantime if you are serious - the homepage of georg braun who created gba1k and consorts is here:
http://www.gb97816.homepage.t-online.de/

he has released documentation what concerns at least part of his projects, i dont know how much exactly. but you can contact him.

I absolutely, COMPLETELY understand that. Lots of people love to talk out of their hat and discuss things they have no chance of accomplishing, especially it seems in the classic computing world, and ESPECIALLY in the Amiga world. Your reaction is totally natural and completely understandable. I have been sidetracked a bit, but I'll finish the redesign of the Thylacine today most likely today. I will post the layout as soon as it is finished. Maybe something more tangible then a block diagram will allow you to have hope in this project.

[TheRogue]

That does bring up a good point.  It would be nice if the original system could be productively used as much as possible.

@TheRouge:

Given that the Zorro buses on the old machines are locked at a certain Mhz, is there any way around the bandwidth limitation by on-the-fly compression and decompression of the bits sent over the bus?

Say a new accelerator is introduced and it want's to communicate with a new RTG card on the old Zorro III bus.  Would it be possible for both the new accelerator and the new RTG card to have a chip which very quickly encodes and decodes data, in effect increasing the amount of information carried over the bus per-bit?  Perhaps something like this would allow the bus to handle more traffic?

Sorry if this is elementary or the way things already work.  I'm sure someone else has already done something like this, but I'm not sure if its been applied to the older Amigas...

From my understanding of Zorro III, this would not be possible. Communication between the CPU card and something on the Zorro bus would have to be relayed through the Buster, which has a practical limitation of ~20MBps. From my understanding of things (While I do have experience with hardware development, I have never attempted an Amiga accelerator before) the only way you could boost the speed of Zorro communication would be to design a replacement for the Buster chip. While this is theoretically possible to do using an FPGA and a plug-in adapter, I'm not going to commit to something like that without a real good reason.

That block diagram seems to almost describe a complete computer. Why even bother with the Amiga part?

I've always asked myself the question: Why? Add a graphics card and a sound card, and you've got a PC with a 680x0 CPU. Not cool

Keep it Amiga, guys

The point would be to allow more demanding software to run on the Amiga platform while keeping close to full backwards compatibility with older software and hardware. I would not consider high-end graphics, large amounts of memory, some PCI-e lanes, and a fast processor attached to an OCS/ECS/AGA chipset to be a PC or close to it. I consider it to be an Amiga with high-end graphics and sound capabilities and an upgrade path (4 PCI-e 1x lanes) that is more future-proof then what is currently available. By your definition a CSPPC+CVPPC+128MB is a complete computer as well and therefor pointless. I'm not trying to be antagonistic or anything, you are totally entitled to your opinion and I can absolutely see your point of view, I just think that as long as you are running a real 680X0 on a machine with a real Amiga custom chipset, it's still an Amiga, the rest is just gravy. You can still put an Amiga floppy disk into the drive and boot an Amiga game without any sort of emulation taking place. I actually find the idea that OS4 Classic uses JIT instead of the real 060 makes me unhappy. I fully understand that it was done for a good reason and I am by no means criticizing the developers, I'm just making a point. I know some purists would say a design like what has been proposed in this thread is absolute heresy, but I also think a lot of people will be very happy to have it.

Dont worry are just fantasies, people starts with accelerator cards and ends with another more "amiga friendly" system.

I absolutely understand your skepticism and I take no offence from it. I hope you will not take offence when I say that I look forward to proving you wrong.

@TheRogue

Holy Crap!(tm) If you can make something like your block diagram that is just
Freaking Awesome!

About your "expansion area". What is easier for you hardware guys to add these days? An oldsk00l PCI slot or a newfangled PCI Express x1 slot?

I bought a Gb Ethernet card 1000/100/10 for a PCI Express x1 slot the other day for like $40.00. I did not check if they make combo cards with Gb Ethernet and USB all in 1 card.

In any case if the card had some sort of way to plug in an off the shelf Gb Ethernet and off the shelf USB solution then that would be really really great and would solve a whole lot of problems all in 1 go.

I am not personally a fan of USB 1.1 to 2.0. I can't stand it really  But I respect that other people need it for stuff. But I do love USB 3.0

Thank you for your enthusiasm! To answer your question, as long as your hardware can support the speed PCI-e is easier due to it's serial nature. PCI is a parallel bus which means more traces, more I/O pins tied up, etc. I think it would be best to implement a header with 4 1x PCI-e signalling lines that could either be connected to a bus-board for connecting full size PCI-e cards for a tower configuration, or small board that plugs directly to the header and passes through the remaining PCI-e lanes to another header for use in tighter cases. It would obviously be smart to implement the newest version of the USB standard instead of the older versions at least in my opinion.

[TheRogue]

Just wanted to let everyone know the 1st version of the Thylacine redesign is almost done. I'm just putting the finishing touches on it now. This version has not moved much around, just removed the huge excess of wasted space at the end and moved a couple of caps just to save a few centimeters but it has already almost halved the length of the card. Right now its about the size of a Catweasel ZII, but I think I can get it down to the size of a Deneb (roughly) with a more thorough redesign. Don't forget, the smaller it is, the cheaper it is, so wish me luck!

[TheRogue]

I hadn't thought of doing that way, but I don't think it will be necessary. I can easily supply a backplate with a ribbon cable connecting it to the card, so half length doesn't really matter much. The Thylacine is a super simple design with a very low component count, condensing it is easy. There is a lot of space used very inefficiently on it, but I have a feeling it was done that way specifically to pad it out to full length. Anyway, I'm just away from my computer now but I will post the first revision as soon as I get back to it.

[TheRogue]

Ok everyone, here as promised is the first redux of the Thylacine. Only two caps moved, but almost half the card cut away as wasted space. First off, here is the layout of the Thylacine as it was released:



Now, here is my first redraft:



I plan on doing more to it, I just wanted to show you guys that I'm not just sitting here with my thumb in.

[TheRogue]

Nice work.. is this a zorro card?

Yes sir it is, a Zorro II USB controller. I will be doing up an A500 version shortly, just so the A500 can have a USB solution that doesn't require a clockport or adapter. Thanks for the kind words!