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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« on: February 04, 2012, 04:39:39 PM »
Quote from: Krashan;679156
And for sure it is not the 8-th wonder of the world.


That's for sure! :lol: At least it's faster than the Sam... ;)
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2012, 08:36:59 PM »
Quote from: runequester;679218
Linux on my dual core is better than MOS and old Apple machines.

But that's not really the point, is it?


You are right, bringing in Linux into a comparison of "Amiga" operating systems would be pointless. The point (and what this is about) is comparing "Amiga" options...
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2012, 08:43:14 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;679204
Also, to be fair, the PA6T is a very nice Soc with great PCIe support.


Would have made more sense if they hadn't sacrificed some of that feature to the XMOS chip, but instead used it for real PCIe...
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 11:21:03 PM »
Quote from: zylesea;679231
Plus Efika5200B. A shame it came with too little RAM and such a slow ide. But still a nice tiny board for little money ($99) a few years ago.


True, but to be fair, the Efika 5200B was merely one step olong the way towards what later became LimePC...
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2012, 01:25:26 PM »
Quote from: amigadave;679267
Trevor just said (not a direct quote, but I am guessing he said something like this) "to hell with how much it is going to cost, we need a new, more powerful Amiga(One)".


I can't really understand how you can applaud something like this. To me it's just insane.

Think of a country like Ethiopia, suffering from drought, crop failure and famine. People are dying by starvation in thousands. They need something to eat to survive and develop as a people. If not, they will die.

Someone comes up with a plan to make cheap meatballs that would provide decent meals to the masses in the short to mid term (the Moana project) while you potentially could try to work something different out for the long term (probably a migration of the people to greener pastures, like x86 or ARM, where the people can survive and develop further).  

But the Generals leading the country (Hyperion) decides that this is not a "worthy enough" solution for Ethiopia(TM), that Ethiopia(TM) is all about being different and better (in some weird, backwards way), that what's needed is a "special Ethiopian(TM) dish", and only this will save the Ethiopian people.

The people cheer, as they always do when the Generals have spoken (no matter what they say) at least the higher society AmigaWorld.net people, and in particular the Ethiopian Noble class at Amigans.net. Now the direction is set, the road is clear. Ehtiopia(TM) will rise once again and become a player on the global arena.

A couple of Ethiopian farmers, the Acube (those originally behind the "mass meatball solution"), develops a plan according to the Generals wishes. Instead of meatball (what's really "special" about meatballs anyway?) they decide to create a Gourmet Dish of Pork Chops (the Sam 440). The Generals cheer, the upper class society (AmigaWorld.net) cheer, the Nobles (Amigans.net) cheer even more. Finally the wait is over, finally Ethiopia(TM) has its special meal that will solve the famine and make the people grow back, both in volume and significance.

Some people however (quite a few actually), openly questions this strategy. They say "in times of famine, poverty and mass starvation, how on earth would the Ethiopians be helped by 'gourmet dishes' that only a few could afford?". But those people are aggressively fought by the Generals minions (the upper class society and nobles) on a broad scale. "Ethiopia has always been about the Gourmet way of eating" they say, but by aggressively using words like "Trolls" and "Negativity", often crying for the Secret Thought Police (moderators) to intervene; "How on earth could Ethiopia possibly rise to its former glory, when these trolls are allowed to spread negativity about our new Gourmet Dish?". And not seldom does the Secret Thought Police abide.

The problem for Ethiopia however, isn't "negativity". It's famine. What was needed was a nutritious dish with enough vitamins and proteins, that could be broadly accessible and easily obtainable. The "Gourmet Dish" that those Acube farmers provided, turned out to be pretty much on par with a carrot stew (the $129 Efika MX, actually even below that, because the Efika MX can actually do quite "meaty" things by clever integration of various on-chip "mini-dishes" that spices things up quite considerably, actually bringing it to a meatball level in many cases). But while the "Acube Gourmet Dish" in practice provides a plain carrot stew, it *costs* like a "Angus Beef Tenderloin" dish (Core-i7 gaming level computer), possibly more. This has the effect that it will neither provide enough nutrition for its consumers, nor will it have particularly many consumers in the first place. The famine continues, the people of Ethiopia continues to decrease in numbers.
 
After a while, the Acube farmers produces a new "Gourmet Dish", the "Pork Tenderloin" (Sam 460). This is a dish that, while it seems a bit more "luxurious" than the Pork Chops, it does have some rather strange oddities and quirks. Once again the debate about the Generals strategy arises, once again the Generals minions have to fight "negativity" and "trolls".

The "Pork Tenderloin" dish in most cases turns out to be slightly below the *older* of the meatball dishes out there (the Pegasos2), being "Gourmet" only in its price tag, that still puts it way out of reach for most people. The Ethiopian population continue to decrease.

Now one of the Generals himself (Ben Hermans) steps up to bring order to the famine situation. Since the General Strategy of course has been right all along, the problems could only be explained by the dishes not being luxurious enough for the Ethiopians taste! Together with the rich, upper class society member Trevor Dickinson, he comes up with the Über Gourmet dish "the special Beef Tenderloin". It is so special, that it actually has a "jewel" in the middle of the plate, made of glass, because "the first Ethiopian(TM) dishes was originally made with a custom jewel, Ethiopians simply loves the thought of a shiny custom jewel in the center of the dish, and a glass jewel will surely satisfy this need of shininess".

Once again the debate arose. Critics said "You can't make a Beef Tenderloin dish based on an old meatball recipe", and "there is no need for shiny jewels in the 21st century, it will only make things more expensive by making the dish a lot more complex, and it's not even really a jewel but a $20 piece of glass", and once again the Generals minions had to come out and fight the "trolls" spreading "negativity". They also seemed to have some kind of competition among themselves, inventing potential uses for the jewel, each idea seeming more narcotic inspired than the other, and almost all suggested a complete ignorance of what kind of jewel it actually was.

Now when it's released, it turns out to be a "Gourmet Dish" only in its price tag. It turns out to be slightly above the meatball dishes that has been around since half a decade ago (but being denied to the Ethiopian people by their Generals), while its price tag is equal to not one, not two, but three or even *four* "Angus Beef Tenderloin" (Core-i7 gaming level computer) dishes! And the jewel? Well, it just sits there in the middle of the plate, and nobody has no idea of how it will add to the taste or nutrition of the dish.

Will this make the Ethiopian population grow? Will it make Ethiopia(TM) more significant, and a player on the global arena? No of course not. The madness is obvious to everyone but the Generals, the Nobles, and the Upper Class Society members of Ethiopia. To everyone outside, both in Ethiopia and in the world as a whole, the madness behind the idea makes it a laughing stock. It can't even be called Ethiopia(TM), but is referred to as EthiopiaOne (or parasite marketing by the Generals using quotation marks: "Ethiopia").

The X1000 is madness, the Sam is madness, the whole mindset that OS4 "Amigans" has on expensive, custome made HW is madness, it's a shameful waste of resources and it will not bring the OS4 platform forward one single bit, rather the opposite.
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2012, 01:26:53 PM »
(The story continues: ;) )

Well there is another country, a neighbor to Ethiopia, a country called Kenya (MorphOS). This is a country very similar to Ethiopia, it has similar history, a similar background. It has a similar population, people enjoying the East African way of doing things, how East African stuff work, etc. These things may be frown upon by European and Northern Americans (Apple and Wintel) who indeed are at a completely different technological level than Africa. But the people living in Eastern Africa likes and appreciate what they have, for what it is, and they can always take a trip to Europe or USA if they want to, some (most perhaps) even works there, so they are very well aware of the differences.

Anyway, being neighbors, also Kenya suffered from the drought, crop failure and famine. They also have the same agricultural platform (the PPC) but the leaders in this country approached the problem in a completely different way. They thought "we need growth and development, but our agricultural platform makes this very difficult, what should we do?"

The answer was not to try to invent new gourmet dishes that only a few could afford and wouldn't really fill the stomach of those who could. No the answer was to look around to see what was already there for them to utilize.

It turned out that there were lots of possibilities to utilize various kinds of tasty and nutritious meatball dishes, that may be considered a bit out of date by European or US standards, but still a vast improvement to the East African meatballs (Pegasos2, A1) they had been living on until the crop failed and brought a starvation. They came up with a Mini meatball dish (Mac Mini) that was an extremely low footprint dish, but contained everything most people needs and wants, and could be measured to be up to 2x as powerful as the "old" meatball dishes. They came up with a big-plate meatball dish (Power Mac) that could be expandable, which can either be extremely low cost, or extremely performing (judged by meatball standards).  They also came up with an even more low-cost dish that actually contained everything you need, including the plate, knife and fork (the eMac) that while being a bit bulky, it still performed a lot better than the old meatballs, and at an *incredible* price, practically for free (sometimes that really *is* the price). And now they are about to introduced a flat kind of meatball, a hamburger, that you will actually be able to carry with you and eat wherever you want (Power Book).

In Kenya, there is no starvation, everyone who wants to live there (if only as a hobby) can have very cheap and easily obtainable meatball dishes of various kinds. But most importantly, the difference between Ethiopia and Kenya seems to be that the Ethiopian leaders focus very much on the agricultural process (PPC is very important) and trying to create new dishes based on this (new custom made motherboards based on various PPC CPU's), while the Kenya leaders is more focused on perfecting the recipe's for the meatball dishes that's mainstream and cheap (developing and optimizing the OS and SW for the existing Mac PPC HW). At least in short term; the MorphOS 3.0 will introduce the "hamburger" (the portable Power Book) and will also mean a major leap in features and performance. Then in a mid term perspective, the meatball recipe's will be even more improved and perfected. And in the long term perspective, they will re-evaluate the whole agricultural infrastructure, which might mean a migration to greener pastures (x86 or ARM), which will definitely mean new dishes altogether, like *real* Beef Tenderloin, made on Angus, (instead of carrot stew with a Beef Tenderloin price tag).

If you look at MorphOS's growth graph over at morphzone.org, you will see how the graph got visibly steeper after the Mac HW support. The growth rate (that was constant both before and after the Mac HW) *increased* visibly due to this. People are migrating from Ethiopia to Kenya, and this is a fact. Most certainly because they like the East African ways, while wanting cheap but great meatball dishes instead of what the Ethiopian Generals can offer them.

With this in perspective, a bit "amusing" to actually see someone enjoying the benefits of Kenya paying the price tag of 3-4 Core-i7 systems, for an Ethiopian "Meatballs Plus" dish, to be able to say "I am an Ethiopian(TM)".
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2012, 08:54:31 AM »
Quote from: TheDaddy;679377
@takemehomegrandma

When I thought you could not sink any lower...


I take it you didn't like my "little" rant about the different approaches of OS4 and MorphOS teams, and the *results* of them, then? At least I'm glad you didn't find any errors, that the real situation is similar to what I pictured! :) Now off you go and have some fun with your $3,000 meatball dish! ;)
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2012, 08:59:54 AM »
Quote from: lempkee;679380
He's been at the bottom for years (!), everyone knows that and he has been told that a million times allready.

You can even look him up in google with his real name to see, not exactly good stuff.

i can't think of a single good thing this guy has done to the community, he was even paid to slander OS4 in the early 2k's , but then again he wasn't the only one.


Was this your best shot at being a *creepy* person? :lol:

Lies, covered threats, slander, shoot the messenger if you don't like the message, so maybe he will be silent in the future? :rolleyes: :)

lempkee... :lol:
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2012, 10:11:38 AM »
@ Iggy

A Cortex-A8 (Efika MX) beats a Sam440.
A Cortex-A9 beats a G4.

Tegra 3 is still Cortex-A9 based. The Cortex-A9 supports quad core by design, but it looks like they will only make Tegra 3 in single and dual core configurations. Instead, the Tegra (Wayne) series will be Core-A15 based, and "About 10 times faster than Tegra 2". (Wikipedia's Tegra page)

Quote
(rumor is that Nvidia and Microsoft have also licensed with the intent to produce 64bit processors, but no official statements have been released).


Read: Microsoft Announces Support of System on a Chip Architectures From ... ARM for Next Version of Windows

"LAS VEGAS - Jan. 5, 2011 - Microsoft Corp. today announced at 2011 International CES that the next version of Windows will support System on a Chip (SoC) architectures, including ARM-based systems from partners NVIDIA Corp ... Microsoft Office running natively on ARM was also shown as a demonstration of the potential of Windows platform capabilities on ARM architecture."

(WINTEL -> "WARM"? ;))

See for yourself Windows and MS Office running on current (or "yesteryear") ARM systems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKc_XGuvNIk&t=1m11s

I think ARM plays a *very* important part in Microsoft's upcoming strategy. The whole new UI in Windows 8 suggests a paradigm shift, where tablets and other mobile devices will be part of the Windows eco-system.

Read: NVIDIA Announces "Project Denver" to Build Custom CPU Cores Based on ARM Architecture, Targeting Personal Computers to Supercomputers

Read: More on "Denver":

"Known under the internal codename "Project Denver," this initiative features an NVIDIA CPU running the ARM instruction set, which will be fully integrated on the same chip as the NVIDIA GPU ... Denver frees PCs, workstations and servers from the hegemony and inefficiency of the x86 architecture.  For several years, makers of high-end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set architecture.  The only option was the x86 instruction set with variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy efficiency.

Denver provides a choice.   System builders can now choose a high-performance processor based on a RISC instruction set with modern features such as fixed-width instructions, predication, and a large general register file.   These features enable advanced compiler techniques and simplify implementation, ultimately leading to higher performance and a more energy-efficient processor ... The result is that future systems - from the thinnest laptops to the biggest data centers, and everything in between - will deliver an outstanding combination of performance and power efficiency."


And this one is *really* interesting, you should real the whole article: nVidia Chief explains his strategy for winning in mobile computing

"The second thing we announced was Project Denver. We’ve been working on a CPU internally for about three and half years or so. (Said in March 2011) It takes about five years to build any full custom CPU. And Project Denver has a few hundred engineers working on it for this period of time and our strategy with Project Denver was to extend the reach of ARM beyond the mobile, the handheld computing space. To take the ARM processor, partner with them to develop a next-generation 64 bit processor to extend it so that all of computing can have the benefits of that instruction set architecture. It is backward-compatible with today’s ARM processors."

Oh, and of course ARM themselves has announces 64-bit: ARM Discloses Technical Details Of The Next Version Of The ARM Architecture

So what we have here, is a future where ARM will be the only architecture spanning from the tiniest little handheld gadget, via phones and tablets, up to PC's, Workstations, Servers and Supercomputers. It will be 32-bit, and it will be 64-bit. This development is backed and embraced by some very big companies, including Microsoft.

Quote
Finally, let me make a personal prediction. Even if Microsoft is a licensee of 64bit ARM technology, the XBOX720 is still going to contain an INM designed PPC based processor (and ATI graphic). I'd bet on it.


I'd bet against that! ;)

An ARM based Xbox 720 would allow them to enter (for the first time) the mobile/handheld gaming market, using practically the same OS/SW/HW architecture, it would be one and the same eco-system.

I am certain that also Apple will go ARM in the future. As the nVidia CEO said in the linked article above: " I don't know their plans but if you look at it from 10,000 feet, it seems to make sense, right? Because if they go Mac on ARM, they could address some of their concerns with their own SOC. So instead of paying $150, they can pay $15."

I think ARM is the future! :)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2012, 10:13:41 AM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2012, 10:49:22 AM »
Quote from: TheDaddy;679498
Not really...comparing people dying of starvation to obscure operating systems is very lame even for you.


How has the Amiga community *not* been dying of starvation during the last 15 years? And how is "the mad Generals" *not* to blame for their decisions? They are the ones that have been in charge, they are the responsible ones. "Mismanagement" is a much too nice word to use when describing Amiga Inc, Hyperion, et al.

Quote
Just so you know I don't have a £1500 meatball dish but if I did it would be more interesting and exciting than a recycled, second hand, discarded old apple product. ;)


But the X1000 isn't "new" either, sure it is newly put together, but by using some old batch of leftover 2007 technology (was the PA6T even really developed fully to a mature production level, or had it only reached early "sample" versions before Apple shut it down? Never seen a real product using it!). It doesn't bring much new to the table in comparison to a Power Mac G4 @ 2GHz. Not even to a Mac Mini @ 1.5 GHz. And it for sure isn't a laptop.

I think it's hilarious to see you people completely dissing one 2007 level computer, that is mainstream and extremely cheap, while at the same time praising another 2007 level computer that performs about the same, doesn't add much at all, still being the old 2007 stuff, but costing $3,000.

I think it's OK to buy a Skoda at the price of a Skoda. They are nice, budget cars today.

I also think it's OK to buy a Mercedes at the price of a Mercedes. They are great, luxurious cars.

However, I can't help thinking it's *insane* when people buying a Skoda at the price of a Mercedes!
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2012, 12:31:42 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;679600
Treavor DOES deserve congratulations. He succeeded against amazing odds.
So what if its expensive?
Don't like the price? Buy an Acube board or a Mac.
No one's forcing you into this.
The naysayers ought to be ashamed.
This is not a negative, its an accomplishment.


While I understand what you are really saying, this is exactly the mind-set that, when it becomes the norm of a the population, will make sure that an eventual "X2000" announced this year (if such is even remotely conceivable, which it probably isn't) will cost $4,000 or more, come out in 2014 or later, offering some 2009 level performance (provided that PPC is even able to provide something that can deliver some 2009 level performance), instead of making a go for the powerful but cheap mainstream options that's already here! Cheap, powerful HW and a platform growth to come with that, will *never* become an alternative now! That's how things goes in OS4 land, you have been going in the wrong direction since Sam440, it continued some more with Sam460, and now X1000. You will continue down that road, there is no turning back.

Of course Trevor Dickinson's accomplishments is worthy some applauds in the way that he struggled against all odds, etc. But the result is taking the OS4 platform one more step down the wrong road. For this reason, a system like the X1000 shouldn't have happened, it should have been cancelled. What he did was putting a giant meatball in the central square of Ethiopia's capital Addis Ababa, out of reach for practically everyone starving for meatballs but some except few, while the rest of the people would need and want a powerful system to run the OS4 now can't do that. It's out of reach, so some of them leaves, move on. The applauds, the cheering that this is the way to go, will only make sure that even fewer people will get access to any follow-ups to this, because the trend has been to always be bigger, faster, and more expensive; Sam440, Sam460, X1000.

But this suits me fine, actually. Things are the way they are; OS4 is HW oriented, MorphOS is SW/OS oriented. I like this, it's good for MorphOS! :)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2012, 01:05:18 PM »
Quote from: amigadave;679770
I am happy that I am getting my X1000, but it was not a good business decision


Genesi is a company that has tried pretty much everything in the PPC when it comes to netbooks/handhelds, desktops and servers. By "tried" I didn't mean they actually released products in the end however...

The "TetraPower" was a dual 970MP CPU (each CPU being dual core, meaning *quad core* in total) motherboard, that represented the very peak of G5 performance. This would have stomped the X1000 down in the ground, totally run it over performance wise, only using *one* of the CPU's. This was cancelled, IIRC because they didn't manage to secure the support from a big enough customer, and didn't get the support they felt they needed from IBM (Having support from Freescale meant the world for the Pegasos and Efika). In the end, this would mean a way too high consumer price, so there was no point in continuing. IIRC the price would still have been *much lower* than the X1000 though. And this was in *2006*!



Another project that was cancelled after some initial design work, was the 8641D based motherboard. I guess they couldn't find a way for it to make sense, business wise. Which (allways) is a requirement.

Both the above would have made really nice desktop or server motherboards back in its days (not so much today, of course).

They also had the 8610 targeted for some time. They planned to use this in a Efika/Netbook style motherboard AFAIK. Being (probably) the highest performing G4 CPU's (due to removed bus bottle necks from prior versions AFAIK, which also made the Altivec shine a lot brighter), it would have been quite powerful, compared to the competition in this segment, Example 1, Example 2. (Later, by a community initiative, Genesi agreed to set up a bounty program to develop a fully open source desktop motherboard based on the 8610, design by b-plan, free for all to use. It was a bounty program in several steps, meaning it would cost tens of thousands of dollars in the end (can't really remember exactly how much, was it as much as $60,000? Just for fun, try to divide that with 3,000 ;)). Community interest was moot, to say the least, you are free to speculate about the reasons. (Also note that more money than what currently shows was collected, many must have withdrawn their bounties, I for one traded my donation for an Efika MX Smartbook and a Smarttop)).

After the failed 5121e/LimePC effort, they ditched PPC altogether, and went ARM.

I have an Efika MX Smartbook, and an Efika MX Smarttop myself. Nice little things! :)

Since then they have actually "cancelled" another project. After spending lots of time developing a much improved board (and very slimmed down and optimized, cost wise) based on the i.MX53 chip (which is an improved version of the i.MX51 used in the Efika MX), they decided to not pursue that route any further. The board is ready, the OS and software support is there, it's a computer completely ready for market. But they have come to the conclusion that at this point, it makes more sense to pursue the i.MX6 instead.

These are just a few examples, many others exists (like the blade server, CPU cards, etc).

My point: Note that this is the very opposite of the "to hell with how much it is going to cost, we need a new, more powerful Amiga(One)" kamikaze strategy?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 01:21:53 PM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2012, 01:12:58 PM »
Quote from: TheDaddy;679790
let's move on. We have ACube and the X1000.

When will it finally sink in to you, that neither of these are/will be/*can be* an alternative for most people, that for most people, there is *nothing* in the "OS4 world" to move on to?

This isn't a solution, it's a road to death of the OS4 platform. I guess you will notice once you get there. Or then again, maybe not...
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 01:31:30 PM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2012, 01:50:41 PM »
Quote from: Tripitaka;679805
Running on old macs is a road to death too unless you end up porting to something else, how is that any different for MOS over OS4?


An easy and good (the best) way of keeping afloat, while searching for new land to settle...
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: dnetc benchmarks
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2012, 02:36:41 PM »
Quote from: kas1e;679807
There can be some "move on to", if only macs ports, then x86 migration, but for that need a lot of developers and time


I'm sure a clean-slate port (which I think would be most realistic for a "*Next* Next Generation") could be done rather quickly. Most essential programs are already native and still supported, with MorphOS 3.0 many of them will even be included in the OS. More time of course to work on 64-bit, true SMP, true MP, and the other stuff that requires a clean-slate break from the legacy, but that's more of development work, not port.
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)