dnetc benchmarks

[kas1e]

@TheDaddy

Surely it will be second hand one day but hopefully the OS4 community won't have to rely on stuff handed down the line by apple.

I do not know to be honest. Imho skipping supporting of already good hw (yes its old and second handed, but still its prove to be good, g4 and g5 are fine cpus) a bit irrational. I mean that for sure, x1000 can be solds over the true amiga fanatics, but what next ? Most ppls for sure will choice cheaper solutions if they firstly will come to amigaworld and just comparing available ways. But (imho again) hyperion kind of in interst to sold more copies of os4, and then, macs will help with it as well. Anyone who want "non second hand, brand new, uniq amigaos4 hw only" can by x1000 for 3000$, but those who want "second hand, old and discarded" macs for 300-500$, which kind of the same by speed if we check the benchmarks, can buy them. Bigger choice, more users, everyone win.  Fanatics can spend a lot of money to x1000, pragmatics or who can't or do not want to spend a lot of money, can spend less for macs.

For me its just sound irrational to not support macs, and i think, that the real purpose of not doing this, its that "morphos do it already". I even read somethere in the forums back in time, how one of brothers say "and new netbook are new ! not used mac hw! ". I.e. like it make any differences, while its wellknown that netbook are just old lime. Just kind of irrational, and sounds indeed like mac-mos-fobia.

At the moment we are safe in the knowledge that we can buy brand new OS4 machines which are well supported by their manufacturers, see ACube for example.

Acube for sure deserve a credit. They never hold the truth, they open, they fix their board if something going wrong, they write a drivers and release it without waiting for os updates, that all point to them as to adequate persons. Sadly we can't say the same about everything in amiga world

[takemehomegrandma]

@ Iggy

A Cortex-A8 (Efika MX) beats a Sam440.
A Cortex-A9 beats a G4.

Tegra 3 is still Cortex-A9 based. The Cortex-A9 supports quad core by design, but it looks like they will only make Tegra 3 in single and dual core configurations. Instead, the Tegra (Wayne) series will be Core-A15 based, and "About 10 times faster than Tegra 2". (Wikipedia's Tegra page)

(rumor is that Nvidia and Microsoft have also licensed with the intent to produce 64bit processors, but no official statements have been released).

Read: Microsoft Announces Support of System on a Chip Architectures From ... ARM for Next Version of Windows

"LAS VEGAS - Jan. 5, 2011 - Microsoft Corp. today announced at 2011 International CES that the next version of Windows will support System on a Chip (SoC) architectures, including ARM-based systems from partners NVIDIA Corp ... Microsoft Office running natively on ARM was also shown as a demonstration of the potential of Windows platform capabilities on ARM architecture."

(WINTEL -> "WARM"? )

See for yourself Windows and MS Office running on current (or "yesteryear") ARM systems: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKc_XGuvNIk&t=1m11s

I think ARM plays a *very* important part in Microsoft's upcoming strategy. The whole new UI in Windows 8 suggests a paradigm shift, where tablets and other mobile devices will be part of the Windows eco-system.

Read: NVIDIA Announces "Project Denver" to Build Custom CPU Cores Based on ARM Architecture, Targeting Personal Computers to Supercomputers

Read: More on "Denver":

"Known under the internal codename "Project Denver," this initiative features an NVIDIA CPU running the ARM instruction set, which will be fully integrated on the same chip as the NVIDIA GPU ... Denver frees PCs, workstations and servers from the hegemony and inefficiency of the x86 architecture.  For several years, makers of high-end computing platforms have had no choice about instruction-set architecture.  The only option was the x86 instruction set with variable-length instructions, a small register set, and other features that interfered with modern compiler optimizations, required a larger area for instruction decoding, and substantially reduced energy efficiency.

Denver provides a choice.   System builders can now choose a high-performance processor based on a RISC instruction set with modern features such as fixed-width instructions, predication, and a large general register file.   These features enable advanced compiler techniques and simplify implementation, ultimately leading to higher performance and a more energy-efficient processor ... The result is that future systems - from the thinnest laptops to the biggest data centers, and everything in between - will deliver an outstanding combination of performance and power efficiency."

And this one is *really* interesting, you should real the whole article: nVidia Chief explains his strategy for winning in mobile computing

"The second thing we announced was Project Denver. We’ve been working on a CPU internally for about three and half years or so. (Said in March 2011) It takes about five years to build any full custom CPU. And Project Denver has a few hundred engineers working on it for this period of time and our strategy with Project Denver was to extend the reach of ARM beyond the mobile, the handheld computing space. To take the ARM processor, partner with them to develop a next-generation 64 bit processor to extend it so that all of computing can have the benefits of that instruction set architecture. It is backward-compatible with today’s ARM processors."

Oh, and of course ARM themselves has announces 64-bit: ARM Discloses Technical Details Of The Next Version Of The ARM Architecture

So what we have here, is a future where ARM will be the only architecture spanning from the tiniest little handheld gadget, via phones and tablets, up to PC's, Workstations, Servers and Supercomputers. It will be 32-bit, and it will be 64-bit. This development is backed and embraced by some very big companies, including Microsoft.

Finally, let me make a personal prediction. Even if Microsoft is a licensee of 64bit ARM technology, the XBOX720 is still going to contain an INM designed PPC based processor (and ATI graphic). I'd bet on it.

I'd bet against that!

An ARM based Xbox 720 would allow them to enter (for the first time) the mobile/handheld gaming market, using practically the same OS/SW/HW architecture, it would be one and the same eco-system.

I am certain that also Apple will go ARM in the future. As the nVidia CEO said in the linked article above: " I don't know their plans but if you look at it from 10,000 feet, it seems to make sense, right? Because if they go Mac on ARM, they could address some of their concerns with their own SOC. So instead of paying $150, they can pay $15."

I think ARM is the future!

[TheDaddy]

@Kas1e

>>I do not know to be honest. Imho skipping supporting of already good hw (yes its old and second handed, but still its prove to be good, g4 and g5 are fine cpus) a bit irrational.

This can only be answered by Hyp.


>>I mean that for sure, x1000 can be solds over the true amiga fanatics, but what next ?

We don't know, maybe there will not be a next. Maybe there'll be another motherboard, maybe ACube will release another type of motherboard.

>>I doubt that even if OS4 was available for Macs it'd sell more copies of OS4 otherwise Hyp would have done it. It's also what MOS does.

[takemehomegrandma]

Not really...comparing people dying of starvation to obscure operating systems is very lame even for you.

How has the Amiga community *not* been dying of starvation during the last 15 years? And how is "the mad Generals" *not* to blame for their decisions? They are the ones that have been in charge, they are the responsible ones. "Mismanagement" is a much too nice word to use when describing Amiga Inc, Hyperion, et al.

Just so you know I don't have a £1500 meatball dish but if I did it would be more interesting and exciting than a recycled, second hand, discarded old apple product.

But the X1000 isn't "new" either, sure it is newly put together, but by using some old batch of leftover 2007 technology (was the PA6T even really developed fully to a mature production level, or had it only reached early "sample" versions before Apple shut it down? Never seen a real product using it!). It doesn't bring much new to the table in comparison to a Power Mac G4 @ 2GHz. Not even to a Mac Mini @ 1.5 GHz. And it for sure isn't a laptop.

I think it's hilarious to see you people completely dissing one 2007 level computer, that is mainstream and extremely cheap, while at the same time praising another 2007 level computer that performs about the same, doesn't add much at all, still being the old 2007 stuff, but costing $3,000.

I think it's OK to buy a Skoda at the price of a Skoda. They are nice, budget cars today.

I also think it's OK to buy a Mercedes at the price of a Mercedes. They are great, luxurious cars.

However, I can't help thinking it's *insane* when people buying a Skoda at the price of a Mercedes!

[TheDaddy]

>>How has the Amiga community *not* been dying of starvation during the last 15 years? And how is "the mad Generals" *not* to blame for their decisions? They are the ones that have been in charge, they are the responsible ones. "Mismanagement" is a much too nice word to use when describing Amiga Inc, Hyperion, et al.


What are you on about?


What you voluntarily try not to understand is that you can't run AmigaOS4 on the macs so all this is just useless chat. Now, if you find it entertaining posting "benchmarks" and throw mud around then carry on. Have fun.

You are happy with your mac and MOS others are happy with their overpriced, underpowered AmigaOS4 machines. There.

[Tripitaka]

It takes time and money. As you know from my bank manager, it, the money, quickly runs out that is why my pumped up SAM440ep goes under the hammer.

http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=60650

Off topic I know but any chance of using Kickstarter?

[Iggy]

@ Iggy

A Cortex-A8 (Efika MX) beats a Sam440.
A Cortex-A9 beats a G4.

You like long winded posts, but you never offer any proof for your statements.

I'd really like to see a benchmark on  the second one since it seems implausible.

I've known about Nvidia's plans for some time, but the induction of Denver is a long way off. You could have just posted a wolf type link (rather then reproducing so much text).

And the XBOX720? So far, only news about the GPU (based on ATI HD 6000, now particularly impressive). Evolutionary not revolutionary. I'll take your bet.

ARM the future? Who knows?
I'm not sure I'd bet on anything (except seeing AMD continue to falter).
Against Intel, ARM has a real fight.

[Iggy]

However, I can't help thinking it's *insane* when people buying a Skoda at the price of a Mercedes!

That line, however, is hilarious.

[cgutjahr]

What you voluntarily try not to understand is that you can't run AmigaOS4 on the macs so all this is just useless chat.

What you are ignoring is that the people who could have delivered an OS4 version that runs on a Mac (remember "Moana"? that was four years ago) decided not to do so. And now the very same people are trying to sell you a $3000 computer that apparently doesn't do anything that a six year old $200 Mac can't do. And we never got any explanation for this decision. That's why a comparison with Mac hardware is not "useless chat", but food for thought.

Some of us really want to use OS4 (it was my main OS for four years), but the only choices presented to us are pocket calculators that cost a fortune, or outdated desktop computers that cost three fortunes. I'm asking myself "why?" - and with every delay, with every benchmark, every time somebody mentions the price tag I look at Hyperion, the OS4 devs or A-EON for answers.

I didn't get any answers so far. Instead, I can now look forward to the next custom hardware debacle - which, as usual, is going to start with a major delay (the OS4 netbook should be out in four months - wanna bet if they make that deadline?). Followed by performance problems and stability or QA issues. And then either the hardware or the manufacturer (or both) will vanish again, leaving behind 50 proud owners of a netbook which is only half supported by the OS that runs on it.

At the same time MorphOS users are going to run their OS on cheap and readily available laptops produced by a respected company that run circles around those wannabe netbooks that will cost three times as much and will be produced by god knows who.

But yeah, our biggest problems are those evil guys publishing benchmarks.

[WolfToTheMoon]

I was somewhat surprised by the apparent lack of speed shown by the PA 6T. I must say I expected it to be faster than G4, on core per core basis.

Seems like Powerbook is the best choice right now for PPC Amiga speed freaks.

[Iggy]

What you voluntarily try not to understand is that you can't run AmigaOS4 on the macs so all this is just useless chat.

That's just not true.
Someone leaked a beta port for the Mac Mini years ago.

Hyperion chooses not to support affordable platforms.

[WolfToTheMoon]

Hyperion chooses not to support affordable platforms.

Yes, they seem to be very good at shooting themselves in the foot.


They have been now 2 years in posession of a settlement with Amiga Inc which allows them to port freely to whichever architecture or hardware they choose(specifically mentioned in the settlement, I know because I checked), yet they don't seem to be doing anything smart with it.

[spirantho]

If Moana had come out, we would not have Sams, we would not have X1000, we would have nothing new because there would be no market. We would all be tied to using Mac cast-offs.

Many of us don't want that. By releasing AOS 4 for Macs we would be tied down to second hand Macs for the lifetime of AOS 4, I'd much rather have spanking new hardware even if it is new hardware.

If you want to use old Macs, use MOS. If you don't, use AOS. Be happy with what you choose, and let other people be happy with what they choose.

[jorkany]

I was somewhat surprised by the apparent lack of speed shown by the PA 6T. I must say I expected it to be faster than G4, on core per core basis.

Now we're finding out why it was EOL'd. I'm also interested in what happens when the lack of availability becomes an issue. New old warehouse stock has a funny way of running out.

Popcorn 2-for-1 sale at Publix this week!

[wawrzon]

x1k is for sure not a mind blowing succes as os4 hardcore fans try suggest. on the other hand lets look at that in comparison. this machine has a apparently good results on bernd rosch 68k benchmark, so from 68k perspective where we will likely never see a 1.8 ghz singlecore 68k compatible cpu in operation a ppc which such specs is already not a bad choice. imagine what would happen if natami team delivered it with even only 1ghz softcore instead of 100mhz one? wouldnt it be a achievement to be considered legendary? of course modern amithlon or aros with os4/mos likewise 68k compatibility would even be better, heck, probably even macmini with mos, especially considering more advanced system, and the x1k price is doubtless a nail to its coffin, but lets give it credit it deserves.

[cgutjahr]

If Moana had come out, we would not have Sams, we would not have X1000

Yes, but you make it sound like this would be a bad thing? Why?

Edit: Are you aware that moana actually was said to be an ACube project? Apparently the Sam manufacturer itself didn't worry too much about the Sam.

We would all be tied to using Mac cast-offs.

They are cheaper, easier to get and available in bigger numbers. And if one breaks, you simply buy a replacement (you can do that ten times before getting even close to what the x1000 costs). Again, what's the problem?

By releasing AOS 4 for Macs we would be tied down to second hand Macs for the lifetime of AOS 4

Who said "lifetime"? We could be using OS4 on cheap, proven hardware right now. And while we would have fun doing that, we could take our time to plan the next step.

Planning the next step is neccessary anyway - the x1000 always was a dead end.

If you want to use old Macs, use MOS. If you don't, use AOS. Be happy with what you choose, and let other people be happy with what they choose.

You can be happy as much as you want. And I'm going to voice my opinion as much as I want. Deal?