Roadshow for 68K -Needs your support!

[kolla]

then you don't have a product, even if it has been open sourced.

And there is where you're flawed - thinking of software as products, that's just way old fashioned.

[kolla]

I would not presume to be so pessimistic. My personal impression is that the number of people who make stuff in this community has dwindled so far that that the relation to the number of people who use the stuff has become unsound.

This is just nonsense, first you're saying that you're not so pessimistic, and then you present an even more pessimistic view - seriouslly, if anyone's pessimistic here it is you, and not I  :lol:

For one thing, a developer can't create magic in his backroom just for his own enjoyment forever.

True, every now and then they leak out youtube videos, or display some "magic" on various meetings, mostly to stir up the community and create a lot of entertaining noise. I here of developers in our community, not developers in general.

More importantly, without the user the developer is in a certain danger to produce something that isn't particularly useful or good.

That's hardly a danger when you don't really give a rats ass about other users than yourself and maybe the small group of people you share code with.

Developers and users are by nature groups with little overlap.

Nonsense - all developers are also users.

From my experience, the developer is more likely to offend the user than the other way round.

Since the developer is more inclined to have something that the user wants, so the user retain him-/herself from being upfront with the developer. Also alot of developers are notorious for striking down on anyone who say anything against them - many of them seem to suffer from god syndrom.

There's lots of crap software around, and many developers are easily offended if you criticize their work, and they typically have a certain following of mostly ignorant groupies. For example, I have been quite critical about certain developments in both OS4 and MorphOS, since I think lots of the choices made there are just totally bogus and more or less destroy what I find cool about Amiga, turning the OSes more into flawed Windows wannabes than cool Amiga systems. So I'm officially a troll in both camps.

[kolla]

You're a troll as long as want to be a troll. Are you content being one?

If by troll you mean someone who bothers to criticize the "progress" made in mentioned systems, then sure, I'm quite content. Hardly a day go by without me trolling.

Edit: So it seems my comment on amigans.net was out of line and I was edited out, luckily I have a screenshot of the post in question.

[kolla]

@Kolla: Problem is there's no real goal defined for both camps. So development just goes on, people follow a direction, then the other one,...

Which is fine, if they were an open system like AROS for example, but they're not, they so desperatly try to delude themselves into thinking that they're doing it as a business, and they promote their stuff as if they have great plans and whatnot, when in reality it's all just futile attempts at smoke and mirror. And to top it off, they prevent anyone else from forking off by keeping their systems all locked and closed off.

You clearly have your vision, and maybe it's not what the developers have in mind.

And thanks to the political nonsense, people with slighly other vision than "the officials" will never bother to involve themselves either. This is one of the reasons so many developers have fled.

So when some decision is made you may not agree, so you critize, again, and again, and that's what they dislike. And then you're seen as a "troll".

And that's perfectly fine by me, it says more about them than about me.

Problems is communication is needed, but the developers, as you said, are mostly coding for themeselves, for their own pleasure,... following the direction they think is the good one.

I've noticed that the Friedens are getting fed up as well, with some luck OS4 is soon dead in water, and Hyperion launches some commercial desktop for Linux or whatever, as OS5, based on Qt it seems. And it too will fail, but who gives a damn...

[kolla]

I'd hate to break your martyr complex, but people don't get classed as trolls for being criticial - they get classed as trolls for being rude, obnoxious, inflamatory, and generally socially inept (intentionally or not)...  Which is a long way of saying if someone act's like a jerk then they'll get labelled as one.

Excuse me, but you obviously have no idea what trolling is - try a dictionary or the jargon file.

[kolla]

I thought you were against wasting of effort by having multiple Amiga-like systems?

No - pay attention, I do not mind having multiple Amiga-like systems - how does sharing code contradict having multiple systems?

Cos forking would make the situation worse, not better.

Why? Forking would make more options to pick from, that's a good thing.

You come across as very bitter.

Because I dont put smileys all over the place?

Has life been that bad to you?  (i.e. You can't build anything good yourself, so you try to destroy others' efforts instead?)

Life is good to me, don't worry. And exactly what am I destroying?
Wanna try my Gentoo/m68k distro? It's all open source, runs on Amigas, is IPv6 enabled and all, just don't expect any support! :roflmao:

[kolla]

@olsen
At leat you know what trolling is

Don't mix your signals...

I'm not, you can find news postings by me in 1996 or so where I'm saying more or less the same things as now - that's where the trolling comes in, people are just tired of me constantly pointing out the elephants that they want to ignore.

[kolla]

But if your involvement does not even extend to the same degree of risk-taking then your criticism will not have the same degree of impact. It's as simple as that. This can be frustrating for sure. If you do not get involved in the game, you can't play.

Again speaking as if programming for Amiga today is some sort of profession - there is no game for crying out loud, that's just a stupid illusion, and only fools take risks here, meaning, by your logic, fools criticism should count most? That explains alot then :hammer:

If you think ill of the people who you merely disagree with, it will cloud your judgment. If you publicly wish them ill, it will reduce your standing in the public eye. This is the path best not taken.

I don't want anyone ill, did I give that impression?

You can disagree with anybody, but your chances to successfully understand what they are trying to achieve, and your chances to influence their decision making will be slim if you view them disagreeing with you in such a dismal light.

It's typically quite obvious what "they" are trying to achieve. And I'm sorry, but I have a life outside of "Amiga" where I have no problem communicating with people, I'm also involved in various software projects (all open source btw. - fancy stuff) where there's also no problem communicating. In my experience it's really only in the amiga community there are so many problems, since in other communities (open source ones) one can easily split out a fork or start a different distro or whatever. That's just so much better.

And still we have OS4 and MorphOS advocates that fly the "Linux suxx!!1" banner, it's quite hilarious.

[kolla]

Did you build it on cheezy ? ;-) (I'm assuming its binaries right? no way I'm compiling x.org / kde on my amiga )

Haha, no - it was mostly buildt on my A1200, but eventually I moved it to a PC running Aranym (atari emulator) where I build all the stuff now. Also, don't worry about x.org - there's no X11 in my distro

Cheezy has received a mTec 68020i card btw. one of these days as I get the spirit (and find some room), I'll set it up and enjoy the upgrade

[kolla]

Just want to toss in some numbers from a slightly different world, using wget to download a 88,616,960 bytes file from a webserver on same LAN, over IPv6 (for what it's worth), to /dev/null - all machines running Linux 2.6.30:

A1200, Blizzard 1230IV 50MHz 68030, Micronik-ZII, A2065: 169 s, ~512 KB/s
A1200, Blizzard 1260, 50MHz 68060, N2000 PCMCIA: 95s, ~910 KB/s
Macintosh Quadra 610, 25MHz 68040: 94s, ~920 KB/sec

[kolla]

with apple podacts taking over the world windows  surely  looks like its  time  is  coming to a end ..eventually ..

:crazy:

[kolla]

What wouldn't be more natural than a GUI made with gtlayout?

[kolla]

I don't know how much MTU path discovery could help in communications

Without support for path MTU discovery you can end up in a situation where for example you seemingly at random can download from certain sites but not from others, even though you can ping them and reach them from other machines. I had this problem years and years ago with AmiTCP (it must have been, since Miami, appearantly, does support path MTU discovery).

The real culprit here is that since Roadshow is closed, the features of Roadshow is at the whim of one single person, which renders it rather useless for me at least, as I already have Miami.

[kolla]

I know that's a lot of work, but it does solve the problem. :-P

Yes, one could implement something path MTU discovery-ish as a filter :p

That's kind of the same for all commercial software, including AmigaOS itself.

Yes, and many of us have been promoting the liberation of AmigaOS sources since 1994, but nah - we still have to resort to hack&patch to fix things, and  anyone who _dare_ distributing prepatched binaries is officially to be treated as an outcast (yet everyone and their dogs happily share whatever on the zone over at EAB).

Miami, on the other hand, is ... dead? ;-)

And how long till Roadshow is dead? I don't see the big difference, really.

[kolla]

Ask me again in ten years time

Noone will have any use for it in ten years time, it's just marginally of any use today.

[kolla]

As a fellow norwegian you dont have to travel so far from the major cities before you might need to rediscover ADSL and maybe even ISDN...

But I will not have to deal with an ADSL modem directly connected to the computer, like there used to be. Instead there are "smart" ADSL and ISDN routers that you configure through a LAN port.