MorphOS on Power Mac G5

[kolla]

MorphOS (and OS4 i hope) users don't all just play around with their windows and icons.

 That, appearantly, is what the betatesters are doing.

[kolla]

ImageFX?. That program would fly on a G5 and only runs on Amiga's.

A multicore PC with multiple instances of UAE beats a G5 running MorphOS easily.

[kolla]

Really?  You will just have to show me how a PC running UAE can run MorphOS.  (before you get all riled up, I know you were responding to the ImageFX running on MorphOS being faster on the G5 posting)

Yes, I was responding to the issue of ImageFx - your comment above makes no sense.

If ImageFX and other Classic Amiga programs were the only apps us MorphOS users were running on our MorphOS computers, I would agree that there is almost no reason except the OS experience itself, which is good in my opinion, to use MorphOS at all.  But that is not the case, there are MorphOS native apps that can only be run on a MorphOS capable computer.

Like what exactly? I have yet to see any native MorphOS app that justifies the hassle over running equivalent m68k software under UAE or native app under host OS.

Granted, as Karlos likes to point out, most of those apps that we can run on MorphOS (AmigaOS4 is in the same boat) exist on other platforms that run orders of magnitude faster than any MorphOS2.x or AmigaOS4.x machine at a fraction of the price, but I fail to see the logic of why any MorphOS or AmigaOS4 user would want to keep using underpowered hardware that limits the kinds of things we can do on the OS we prefer to use, not are forced to use because the software we want to run is only available on other OSes that we do not enjoy using as much as an Amiga-Like OS.

The hardware is not the problem - the OSes themselves are, it's the OSes that are underpowered, and lacking just about any modern features I can think of - providing kick ass hardware is rather pointless when the OS you want to run on it is a relic of 20 years ago with some 3D fluff and nice icons thrown ontop of it. Glorified emulators are what they are, with a handfull of native apps each.

Does Karlos use either MorphOS2.x or AmigaOS4.x?

I have both, but I rarely use them since they lacking so much behind that I dont really see the point - I get more done with UAE and old m68k apps than with any of OS4 and MorphOS, since the host systems I run UAE on can transparently give UAE and the m68k apps access to data over modern protocols, something none of the so called NG systems are capable of. And as a bonus I also get much faster amiga systems, that can be live migrated, backed up and have hardware upgrades whenever it fits _me_, without having to jump through burning hoops and whatnot.

MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x need the power to enable the few remaining programmers we have to write more power hungry applications and games.

Nonsense. Programmers flee MorphOS and AmigaOS4.x mostly due to lack of modern features in the OSes, features that core developers see no point in adressing for whatever reasons.

It is kind of a chicken or egg situation.

No it's not, it's a "too many old hens laying rotten eggs" situation.

Does the software that requires more power and graphics capability come first and run crappy on what we have today, or do we port our OSes to more powerful machines so that more power hungry software can be written?  I think it is the latter.

You are wrong. There is no need for more CPU power, there is a desperate need for updating the core functionality of the OSes, providing modern features to them so that it becomes even slightly interesting for developers to provide software for it.

Why not just use the more capable OSes and hardware in the first place?  Because we are MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x users that wish to use those OSes and computers, that is why we are here discussing this.

Not really - MorphOS and OS4 were originally meant to be quite different beasts than what they are today - both went from being systems with promising roadmaps to glorified emulators with nice icons. Do you remember what OS4 looked like on the paper back in 1996? Or how abox in MorphOS was just meant to be a temporary stopgap? Today they are just short of being cought up by AROS - I find that highly ironic, sad and hilarious at the same time.

I don't see many PC and Mac users here that are not at least in some way interested in MorphOS2.x and/or AmigaOS4.x.

OS4 and MorphOS are not that much more interesting than OS3.x, really.

Doesn't that make sense to everyone?

Nope

[kolla]

A multicore PC with multiple instances of UAE beats a G5 running MorphOS easily.

                                                    

As UAE only runs 68K apps, that's hardly the point. We're talking about a PPC OS.

Nope, the comment I was responding to was not about PPC OS as such, it was about "what makes MorphOS more suited than anything else for old m68k amiga apps" - so MIDI sequencing doesn't need the CPU power and an old A1200 does it fine, and someone brought up ImageFx as an example of something MorphOS on a G5 supposedly can do so much better than anything else, and I counter that by pointing out that you can have a much faster environment for ImageFx by using UAE.

[kolla]

That's because it's an obvious joke.

OK, feel free to explain me where the funny bit is

What do you mean "Like what exactly"?

With "Like what exactly" I hoped to get a list of applications that are exclusive for MorphOS, and that really are so great that it justifies the hassle of getting a 20kg old G5 beast to keep around, and paying the MorphOS license for it too.

The decision to use or not use MorphOS (or AmigaOS4) is not in question.

It was in the comments I responded to, where Karlos pointed out that he does not need anything more than his A1200 to do MIDI sequencing, and someone brought up ImageFx as an example of something needing more CPU power - I would say it is much saner to set up UAE on a PC to run ImageFx rather than getting this old monster of a machine (G5 workstation) and pay for the extra MorphOS license for it.

I and many others have already made that choice, so we want as many native applications and games as we can get.  We have made a choice to use MorphOS2.x, and/or AmigaOS4.x either in addition to, or instead of another OS on other hardware.  For myself, I would rather get to a point where I never have to boot any Windows OS ever again for many reasons.

I never was a Windows user, and what does Windows have to do with anything in this thread?

You really missed the mark with this one.  You are trying to tell me that decoding HD video for playback can't be done on my Efika because of a fault in MorphOS?

It's the fault of MorphOS that I for example cannot watch TV online as I am used to, even if I had a G5 to run it on, it's not about applications that are lacking either, it's about that darn stuck-in-the-90ies old IP stack that comes with MorphOS and the lack of modern features in it. And the developers are more concerned about how many bytes faster it is than almost equally antiqued MiamiDx over FTP transfers.

Maybe faster hardware will help "inspire" just one MorphOS2.x or AmigaOS4.x programmer to keep programming for those OSes AND allow one new app/game to be written that cannot be run, or run satisfactorily on the slower existing hardware that those OSes have available to them today.

Ah yes - you just need some magic software that only a G5 can make use of, and all the people who would want to use that killer application would have to hunt down old G5s too. MorphOS people have themselves uses this as an argument against the X1000, well...

Using your comment and logic above why did anyone create 68060 cards for the A2000/A3000/A4000's?  Faster hardware has allowed for new, more demanding software to be written on all OSes from the beginning, why shouldn't the users that care about continuing to use MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x want this for our OS of choice?

I really don't see the relevance here, so I take it you're joking again :laughing:

Maybe modern OSes are also part of the problem and all those features you keep referring to aren't really necessary as part of the OS and should be optional for people with other priorities, needs and desires from their computing experience?

Ofcourse, that's true for any system.

But, just out of curiosity... what do you do the day your ISP fully switches to IPv6?

Then why even keep them? Why comment in threads that are about improving the hardware for an OS that you don't use and have little or no interest in? Just sell them to other Amiga users that can appreciate them and stay happy with your other OSes and computers.

Why? There are other operating systems I can run on them that do have the features I need. I have been running Linux on my old A1200 for since 1997, it does it just fine.

I don't know which "modern" protocols you are referring to, but my MorphOS2.x computer is connected to my LAN and has access to all the data I need or want on my other computers or on the Internet (I stress the "I need or want" before you respond with something that "YOU" want or need).

Right, you don't know, nor want to know my needs as long as your needs are fulfilled. That's OK, I'm used to that.

After all, it is you that are making comments which infer that using MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x are a waste of time and money, in effect trying to convince others that your view is the only reasonable one to share and anyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.  Oh, the "burning hoops" is a very nice dramatic touch.

Now who is getting all whined up here

Did I really write "idiot" anywhere? And yes, I think the license scheme of MorphOS is very much like jumping though burning hoops, no need to explain sarcasm to me, you used it alot without commenting it already.

So now you are a spokesman for all the programmers that have left programming for MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x and know their reasons for leaving AND you also know what the "core developers" are working on and what they have planned to address at some time in the future?

Yes, I'm a demi god you see, I can read people's minds, it's quite convenient I can tell you.

The arrogance of that statement by you above amazes me.

If you really want to be amazed, you should take a peek down my pants.

My statement wasn't even about programmers who have left.  It is about those that have CHOSEN to remain and continue to use MorphOS2.x and/or AmigaOS4.x. needing more powerful hardware before they can write native apps and games that REQUIRE more powerful hardware.

And we're back to "what apps, exactly?". Full circle

Why resort to insults to express YOUR opinion?

What insults? Where did I insult anyone? Or did you just chose to be insulted?

You made your thoughts about the PPC NG Amiga OSes with your "I have both, but I rarely use them since they lacking so much behind that I dont really see the point" comment earlier.

Yes, I'm sorry for that typo, I meant "lagging behind".

No, you are wrong.  It is clear to all MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x users and unbiased observers that we will benefit from an increase in CPU power.

Unbiased observers tend to wonder what the point is when the OSes can only use one of the cores available, after all, supporting multiple cores is something that BeOS did on PPC back in 1995 - and here we are, 15 years later and nothing has changed in Amiga land.

We also know that progress continues, albeit at a slow pace due to available resources, toward updating the core functionality of our chosen OSes and accept that fact.  Some software development continues, so these OSes are obviously interesting to at least a few programmers and users.  You just aren't one of them.

Correct, I'm not particularly satisfied with the pace of things.

My statement is about users of MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x that prefer to do some tasks on their preferred OS instead of doing the same task on another OS because that is their choice and that is why many of us are reading a thread about the possibility of porting MorphOS to the G5 PowerMac. You obviously don't fit that description so why are you commenting in this thread?

I was originally commenting on how to fastest run ImageFx, and you went AWN on me for no appearant reasons, so I just answered back AWN style.

What is your agenda, or motive?

A couple that are relevant here:
* Open up the development of OS4 and MorphOS to the benefit of all
* Create awareness of the shortcomings of the systems, so that they might be addressed properly, and not just ignored as they typically are today (heck, there was alot more awareness of these issues during the days of OS3.x)

What has your quote above got to do with my statement that you were replying to?  Nothing!  You are just rambling about your disappointment with the current state of either OS compared to where they were originally supposed to go.

Ofcourse I'm disappointed, am I not allowed to be? As for "what has your comment to do with my statement" - that's how our nice little discussion started, with your "joke" that as far as I can tell had nothing relevant to my comment.

Well guess what, ideas, people and projects change sometimes.  Some of us have gotten over it and moved on to a choice of using MorphOS2.x and/or AmigaOS4.x regardless of what was proposed when they were first thought of and development work started on them.

Sure, and I have no problem with that.

Again, you are not one of them so why do you hold on to your computers that run those disappointing OSes you like to run down so much?

My minimac runs linux 99% of the time, and it does it just fine, it can even play 720p quite nicely with both mplayer and VLC (which I've come to realize is the benchmark for how usable a computer is among MorphOS users). I boot MorphOS on it every now and then to check out updates or test out how some old apps work on it, but that's just about that. In addition I have this old peg1/april2 that I got for free, running Linux and MorphOS, and my old A3000 with CSPPC/CVPPC that boots into both OS4.0 and MorphOS 1.4.5, as well as OS3.9.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, but it is not shared by myself and probably a few hundred or more users of MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x and it doesn't add any value to this thread.

Yes, it is a well established fact that the hundreds of MorphOS 2.x users and AmigaOS 4.x users are ignorant about the limitations of their systems. (and that, my friend, was sarcasm too)

It wouldn't make sense to someone who is as biased and jaded toward both PPC NG Amiga OSes as you appear to be.

Yes, I'm teh evil! :laughing:

[kolla]

Where did any of you get the idea that MorphOS users were down on the X1000?

It might have been in the numerous X1000 threads on AmigWorld.net and MorphZone.

[kolla]

Hardly, the Apple G5s were not really up for discussion at the time when X1000 was announced. Do you suggest that takemetograndma never put down the X1000?

And for what it is worth, I don't even see the point of the X1000 myself - from my POV, it is indeed just a waste of money and resources. But then again, I'm not a MorphOS user, so I cannot use myself as an example of MorphOS user putting down the X1000. Or maybe I do count as a MorphOS user, having three systems with it on, of which one is registered (for free).

[kolla]

@amigadave
Right, write me off as a troll, just like the rest of the blue pill crowd - you still have not answered my questions - for me those are real issues, soon enough they will be yours.

[kolla]

I'm not whining, I'm just observing that once again, any critisism against MorphOS is written off as trolling, it's symptomatic for any discussion regarding MorphOS. And what "game"? If anything, it is your game, it was you who started this nonsense.

[kolla]

Apple proved that a switch from PPC to x86 could be done

NeXT proved that a switch from m68k to x86 could be done.
Be proved that a switch from PowerPC to x86 coud be done.
Digital^wCompaq^wHP proved that switch from Alpha to Itanium could be done.
Linux proved that a switch from x86 to just about anything could be done.
*BSD proved that a switch from whatever to whatever could be done.

Why do you even bother to mention Apple?

[kolla]

Huh?!???

Yeah, and MorphOS sucks mostly because of you.

[kolla]

Kolla, I love you to. So very much...

You love me to what?

[kolla]

So much butthurt. Where to begin?

If I may, I suggested something earlier :laughing:

[kolla]

If the X1000 flops, it is likely that it will spell the end of the line for OS4.

I suppose this is why A-eon is a seperate comany, so that Hyperion can live on after A-eon has folded, but for the sake of argument - what will happen to OS3.x and OS4 sources when Hyperion folds?

Two words: Driver support.
Without it, all the "potential" is just talk.

Driver development can keep the few developers busy for years and years. For these small developer groups it only makes sense to support a very limited set of cards. I remember when QSSL was trying to push neutrino to the "geekhood", they failed for several reasons:

* lack of drivers
* closed developing model, "anyone" could not just develop drivers
* way too few developers internally at QSSL to deal with above problem
* way too little hardware internally at QSSL to deal with above problem (I helped the pcmcia ethernet card developer, appearantly I myself had more cards availably than he did)
* some clever person ported gtk to photon and everyone got busy bringing gtk apps to neutrino instead of creating native apps, with very mediocre results. Users quickly realized that there are better platforms for running gtk apps and left.

Thanks to all the fighting, the vast majority of developers left the scene a long, long time ago.

That, and some other reasons
* limitations in the OSes that makes development painful
* limitations in the OSes that makes alot of software irrelevant to implement
* closed source OS with all that brings (for development of subsystems, drivers etc)
* the license model, you cannot do proper testing of your software on different hardware without paying new licenses (30 minutes is not enough)
* the "social contract" developing for these systems implies

[kolla]

What is this "social contract"?

You have to be "socially compatible" with the other people developing the system you're developing for, and be able to merge into the existing group. For application developers this is not such a big issue, but if you want to develop OS components and bring the system further, it very much is.

For MorphOS this means you have to suck up to Laire, play alot of Quake online, laugh at OS4 "progress", maintain a list of people that are uncapable, praise MUI, ridicul Reaction and anything from OS3.5+ (yet support it, just for kicks), sort me under "trolls" and much more. :lol:

On Linux and BSD this is much easier, as there are so many camps to join and if none fits already, nothing prevents you from starting your own.