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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« on: September 01, 2012, 06:51:27 AM »
Oh, huh, I was going to kvetch that IBM PPCs don't support AltiVec, outside the G5, and therefore it'd be annoying for running software that supported it, but I looked and they've actually incorporated it into POWER6 on up. Whaddya know.

Yeah, it is too bad they have no interest in the desktop market anymore - do they even still make POWER-based workstations, or did that end when they spun off Lenovo?
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 05:51:23 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;706132
It can't. Simple as that.
It was $2700, but they already did. They sold their entire first run. Which is why they're looking into a second.

Not saying I think it's anything like a reasonable price, but the fact is they did sell.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 06:21:23 PM »
Was the price on the second run any lower, out of curiousity?
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2012, 10:41:02 PM »
I am actually curious - I can't remember, but I thought the first run was mentioned to have been 100 units? In that case they'd have already surpassed it...
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2012, 12:33:59 AM »
Moore's Law is boned in the long run anyway, there's only so far you can go before you start hitting hard physical limits on circuit density, and I'm willing to bet that we'll hit practical limits well before that. Of course, nobody wants to believe that unless forced to, which means that the software industry will continue to write shoddier and shoddier software counting on ever-increasing computing power until the day when they finally wake up to the headline that we've actually reached peaked computing capacity and everybody starts running around like chickens with their heads cut off panicking about what's going to happen now that you can't just wait a year for better hardware to run your bloaty software on and trying every possible approach they can imagine to avoid having to face the fact that suddenly efficiency will matter again.

And I will laugh.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2012, 05:48:08 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;706243
I don't think computational power is in any danger of peaking anytime soon.
It will just be moved to more multiprocessor tech.

Maybe the # of cores will begin to double every 2 years instead of computational speed of each core. Its still doubling processor power.

8 and 16 core desktops will be commonplace soon enough. But yes, this will just lead to less and less efficient software I think.
I'm not going to say "in the immediate future" or "x years from now" (though I'd bet on sooner rather than later, myself.) Maybe it isn't coming until ten, twenty, sixty years from now, but it is coming. Multicore is great (something we should've been doing pervasively a decade ago, honestly,) but it's nothing at all like a perfect, problem-solved solution to the issue of peak circuit density.

For one thing, there's still the problem of things needing to be implemented in actual, physical silicon - with multicore it doesn't have to be denser, but if it's not it's going to take more die space, and the larger the die, the more signal transfer times become an issue - you can't just have a die a foot across filled with 80 quadzillion cores and expect them to all function in perfect sync with each other, at gigahertz-plus speeds. There's also the matter of control logic for the whole thing, like cache-coherence logic - the complexity of which is going to go up with every core by something like N² - N. The further you push N, the more absurd that's going to get. And speaking of complexity, there's the software side to consider - the operating system that has to schedule threads, pass messages, and arbitrate access to system resources across multiple cores. I don't know that that will necessarily be as bad as the hardware side of things, but then it's still an issue of complexity that's going to scale at least linearly with the number of cores - and worse, it's one that's going to eat up the very CPU time you gain by adding them! Which makes multicore as a whole ultimately a prospect of diminishing returns.

(All of that is, I'm sure, less true for special-purpose tasks like 3D rendering/shading than it is for general-purpose computing, but the problem is that general-purpose computing is what it is most being falsely relied on to fix.)

So no. Multicore processing is great for what it is, but it isn't a solution to the problem of never being able to reach infinity, and relying on it to be that will just mean putting off the confrontation further, and making it harder when it finally does hit.

Not that that will stop anybody.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 05:58:50 PM by commodorejohn »
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2012, 06:36:15 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;706272
Which is why we need ARM!
(My sarcasm detector isn't working very well - that was tongue-in-cheek, right?)
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2012, 07:45:11 PM »
Quote from: Iggy;706282
Yeah, we're getting a lot of ARM promotion here lately and its not like the CPU is anything new.
Indeed; everybody wants to ride the hot new ARM wave that's surely going to last forever, and nobody seems to remember when the new wave was PPC... ;)
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2012, 08:17:24 PM »
Yeah, I've been admiring the architecture from afar for years now. I'd love to have one of the full-fledged minicomputer models, but I've got neither the cash nor the space. This was just a very lucky find at the recycle center :)
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2012, 12:44:53 AM »
I'd love to see an updated 68k, myself - it's a terrifically friendly architecture. That's one of the biggest reasons I hope Natami does come to fruition - the massive chipset improvements are neat, but I really would like to see the 68k core in action.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2012, 10:37:43 PM »
Quote from: minator;706450
Apparently the GPU guys didn't get that memo. top end GPUs run half a million threads on hundreds of cores in parallel.
There's a big, big difference between massive multicore in special-purpose applications, and massive multicore for general-purpose computing, though. Graphics in particular is a task that's pretty much tailor-made for massive parallelism. Word processors, file managers, web browsers, and other unglamorous productivity software? Not so much.
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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2012, 11:36:27 PM »
Quote from: minator;706475
As I understand it the 68K was running into difficulties when it was getting to things like the 68060.  That was one of the reasons they abandoned it.

Having a complex and powerful ISA might be wonderful from the programmer point of view but it's most likely the opposite from the hardware designer's point of view.  Someone has to implement all those commands in hardware and this can lead to some very tricky situations.
This is true enough, but x86 faced the exact same hurdle at the same time - they solved it by moving the Pentium Pro to a RISC microarchitecture which implemented the CISC instruction set, and they've stuck with that approach ever since. I don't see any reason the 68k couldn't do the same. It's a kluge, admittedly, but it's a kluge that could give us a rich, friendly instruction set with increased performance, and that's nothing to sneer at.

Quote
e.g.  What happens if your processor is doing some complex operation and an interrupt comes in?  Do you hold the interrupt and keep going?  What if the operation takes a long time involves reading from RAM?  You probably can't wait that long so you have to find a way of halting the processor, storing the state mid instruction, handling the interrupt, recovering the state and restarting where you left off.
I don't know of any processor that supports breaking for an interrupt mid-instruction - that would be overly complex to implement, introduce a highly undesirable degree of non-determinacy, and not get you anything more than slightly lower interrupt latency for the trouble.

Besides which, most of the 68k instructions that are particularly long-ish are that way mostly because they haven't been implemented a particularly efficient way - multiplication on the original 68000, for example. One of the key things you'd want to do in a new 68k design is address some of those, anyway.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2012, 05:59:13 AM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;706508
Try one of the various Linux distros, this runs modern software, runs very fast, has a faster boot time than Windows. Also it has never crashed in my experience, although I haven't flogged the thing as much as Windows.
I had more frequent and severe crashes running Linux than I've ever had running XP. Didn't boot any faster, either.

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I have tried HaikuOS it may look like BeOS, but it isn't.
Mind elaborating on this? I missed out on the BeOS salad days, so I really don't know what Haiku has yet to achieve on that front (though it certainly could use some newer features, i.e. a proper GUI wireless client.)
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2012, 09:44:35 AM »
Quote from: psxphill;706524
Out of your example, web browsing is the only one that really needs a performance boost. With javascript and compressed video, there is definitely a need for more performance & there is no reason that can't be by using more cores.
Yeah, web browsers are definitely moreso than the other examples. On the other hand, half the reason that's even true is because of the omnipresence of terribly slow (and almost always completely unnecessary) Javascript in modern websites, so even though there is a benefit from a properly multithreaded browser, it's mostly in making bad code less crippling.
 
Quote
The future is multiple cores for general purpose computing, programmers will need to adapt.
Again, I'm not arguing that multicore isn't a good thing; it's lovely for what it is. It's just not an Ultimate Solution to the fact that eventually computers are going to reach a point of maximum practically-attainable power, and all the people who have been blithely counting on Moore's Law to cover for their many, many sins of bloat and shoddy coding and poor optimization are going to run straight into that wall at full steam and then start crying about having to learn to be efficient again.
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Offline commodorejohn

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Re: Power 7 CPU - 8 cores
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2012, 06:30:26 PM »
Quote from: KimmoK;706537
On some of my x86s some windows did not even manage to install itself, etc, etc. Linux went in far more smoothly. Booted faster and was stabler.
I think I've had thousand crashes with windows and only a few with linux (+ perhaps hundred crash of the Linux desktop GUI, that really is not linux fault).
Well that's lovely for you. Doesn't change the fact that I've had XP bluescreen exactly once, and that on account of a crap video driver, while I lost hours of work to sudden core-dumps during my switchover attempts. (And that's not even counting the years during which I was using DSLinux as a portable text editor.)

Quote
And modern linux remembers what you had running when you powered off, it can restore your work's state pretty nicely.
Beg pardon, are you telling me that it actually maintains enough stability in a crash to instruct applications to save your work, and then dumps and reboots? Because merely remembering what I had running is peanuts - I can remember what I had running without help.
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