The Future Of The Amiga - Where Do You Stand...

[Iggy]

Naturally I'm biased.
I use my MorphOS based Powermac everyday and I've just upgraded it with a 1.8 Ghz Sonnett CPU card.
MorphOS will probably be the first Amigoid OS to play Bluray disks (if X86 AROS doesn't beat us to that).

While all of you argue about obsolete hardware/software or projects that aren't quite ready for regular use yet, I'm using a polished derivitive of AOS3.1 that runs much faster than an Amiga, runs many legacy applications, and has a host of MOS specific applications I use daily.

And that's my real point. I use this daily as my primary computer. How many of you can say that about your Amiga of choice?

Of course I support the wide variety of choices available because it increases our user base and offers people different options. I'm not going to try to lure you to my camp, but I know what I'm using has a real, demonstratable advantage in utility.

And were moving forward to laptop support, better graphic cards, and faster processors, all on a stable OS thats got a history that goes back to the last days of the original Amigas.

You all can keep waiting for some future solution, I've got mine and its damned good.

[Iggy]

Same here. I want both a Replay and a Natami, though the Replay looks like it'll be most suitable under the TV where my Minimig lives, while the Natami might actually get powerful enough to get more "serious" use, and I'll keep running AROS on one of my X86 boxes too, though likely hosted or in a VM for now...

I still want an X1000 too, though, and I'll keep AmigaOS4 on that because I want to play with that too... This is an expensive hobby

My goal is to get to the stage where I return to spending a decent percentage of my time using one or more Amiga-like OS's with as many as possible of the amenities I expect from using mostly Linux for the last 12 years.

This isn't that expensive a hobby for me or Golem. And when you finally get your X1000, I'll probably have a G5 Mac with a X850 XT video card that will outperform it.
The Natami looks like a neat system as does the minimig w/ AGA, but these aren't realistic systems for everyday use.

As I said before, you keep blowing your money on old hardware or re-creations of old hardware. I'm getting more use out of what I've got and its gets better on a regular basis.

[Iggy]

I also partly agree with Mechy - if all the time invested in AROS, MorphOS, Natami etc was spent developing/advancing the original hardware & software we'd probably have a very advanced common platform now.  However, due to the legal screw-ups and uncertainty I guess this wasn't possible.

I still maintain my positive view of the current situation though.  Forgetting all the previous problems we're currently in a great (if fragmented) position.   I expect in another year or two we'll see some projects vanish and others gain support.   Through natural selection the most useful will survive.

I don't think AROS or MorphOS are going to disappear anytime soon. I do worry about AOS4.X, but hopefully that will survive.
AROS68K looks like it has a lot of support, and the Natami may be released eventually.

I can't agree with you about a consolidation of resources/effort. We have survived because WE have carried this forward. If we were to make the mistake of investing all our hope again in one endeavor I'm convinvibced it would fail.

We break the Amiga curse by not commiting to a saviour, but by devoting our resources to what WE want.

Screw the people who have disappointed us, broken their promises, and still try to profit off the trademarks they have helped denigrate.

We know what Amiga is, we will direct its future(s), and diversity is helping ius, not hurting us.

[Iggy]

@Iggy

Put simply: don't put all your eggs in one basket...
Well said

Damed right!. I use and support MorphOS, but I SO much want to see all these other projects suceed.

If Amiga is to make a comeback, it will be due to OUR efforts, not Amiga Inc. or Commodore USA.

[Iggy]

When maximum performance matters to me, I have my Linux box which can easily crush any box you can MorphOS on while running several instances of AROS and UAE hosted side by side, as well as assorted other VM's if I so want.

Old PowerPC based Mac's simply have no appeal to me, regardless which OS they run. We recently threw a fully working one away at work because nobody could be bothered taking it home.



MorphOS on a G5 wouldn't be a realistic system for everyday use for me either. I don't have any animosity towards MorphOS but it just doesn't interest me - AROS appeals to me because it's open source, and AmigaOS4/X1000 appeals to me because it's new hardware specifically designed for AmigaOS. Classic AmigaOS appeals to me because, well, it's M68k and the classic chipset or derivations of it that I know and love. MorphOS has none of those.

If MorphOS does it for you, then good for you, but to me it doesn't matter at all if it's more "cost effective". Cost effective is what my Linux box is for.

I'm not "blowing my money" on anything. I'm spending money on things I enjoy to tinker with. As I said: It's a hobby.

Well obviously you do have a bias. And I couldn't care less if your Linux box wants to blow me (away).
New hardware designed for AmigaOS? AOS4 and MorphOS are frightengly similar products and neither supports classic hardware w/o a PPC processor.
If you're fixated on 68K and OCS/ECS that's one thing, but then you mention interest in the X1000.
I admit I like that computer too. I'd Like it better if it ran MorphOS.

And I wish Linux users, UAE users, and X86 fanatics in general would stop trying to convince me that they've got some exceptional solution. I have a PC. I'm posting this on a Mac.

And when the X1000 is finally available, I'll probably still be using a Mac, not just because its cost effective, because they perform better than PPC systems available to AmigaOS users.

Its a shame that Hyperion didn't release a final version if AOS4 for the Mac Mini, they might have sold a few more copies of their OS to people who want more performance than you can get from an Applied Micro based Acube motherboard.  And Franko, its not that I think running blurays on a computer is practical, its just that we may have the power to do it (without having to resort to a PC).

As I've said before, whatever you prefer is fine by me as long as you're supporting some segment of the community.

X1000's ATI R700  support says Hi.

Great! Where can I buy one?

[Iggy]

LOL Aren't we all a bunch of cynical bastards these days!  :lol:

Excellent!

Yah, I can be a real dick sometimes, but everyone's got to have a hobby.

You know, I was in contact with Varisys before the connection between them and A-eon was reveiled. In fact we were speculating on MorphZone about the possibility before the announcement.

I really DO like that machine and to those who speculate that its not a good design, let me tell you I know one of the designers and Varisys knows their sh*t.

I'd also love a Natami when Thomas gets it ready for sale. Register level compatibility with classic hardware would be great.

I just know what I need for a daily use system (and I have it).

[Iggy]

Well, I mentioned three different things that draw me to three different solutions that all appeal to me for their connections to the "Amiga feeling". Maybe I take a look at MorphOS some day too, if it gets ported to some more interesting hardware.

Personally I very much hope that cross-Amiga-like OS development will start to get easier, as I while I actually find the diversity a strength in some ways (we're pretty much guaranteed to always have hardware that can run one of our OS's directly or in emulation, for starters...), where it really sucks is in duplication of effort in porting and writing new software. That's our biggest weakness at the moment.

Sorry about the snide tone in the last posting. I have never been a fan of apple hardware myself (probably because Steve Jobs is such a tool). But G4 Macs under MorphOS don't feel like Macs, frankly its hard to tell the difference between OS4 and MorphOS.

And AROS, AOS4, and MorphOS all are backward compatible with 3.1. Porting software across all three platforms is fairly easy.

Porting across all Amiga platforms is possible. I've seen packages that run on all them.

And I do sympathize with you about Linux, emulation and virtual machines. PC pricing is hard to beat. I just upgraded my Foxconn motherboard (which has four x16 PCIe slots) with a Phenom X3 for <$70 (@Newegg) that I can run at 3.3 Ghz.
The 1.8 Ghz Sonnett upgrade card for my Powermac set me back $150 (more then I spent on the whole system). So I guess I've got no right to lecture on ecomomy.
Besides, if I had the money, I'd probably buy an X1000 too.

[Iggy]

Please don't insult the Amiga by running it on a MAC. I used to be a Commodore salesman selling Amiga's and I really hated those smug, coniving tie and suit shootholes.

smerf

Sorry dude, I can understand your attitude about Apple fanatics and the smug salesmen. But using their hardware to run a better OS is a great personal comment about how lame OSX is.
And the only good use for a Mac IS using it to run Amiga software and Apple abandoned these machines so I feel OK using them. Besides I don't even have OSX installed on my Powermac.

[Iggy]

I agree with Fats. The apple crowd have no probs in calling an iPhone, iPad or any other mac related things for just MAC. Minimig, Natami, AROS, MORPH, AOS4, Classics and all related things is Amiga for me. So looking at all the activity in all the different projects, Amiga's future look bright from my POV anyway.

Then the iPad was released, I read an article interpreting holy Jobs creation like: Technology have ceased to be this firework of features, but have become mundane, a thing you use. If this is true its good news for Amiga, since the catching up will be easier.
Of course Amiga have a future.

Yep, I'm using a Mac now, but like Franko its a model Apple affectionados would snear at. So what! It runs a much better OS than Apple sells.

And the iPad? Everytime I see one of those things I can't help but think of novelty gigantic TV remotes. GHey everybody I just bought a really big iPod!

[Iggy]

@Franko

I stand on the side of choice.  We have many options available (Classic Amiga, many fine Amiga emulation products, MorphOS, OS4 and AROS).  I think that the future is full of possibilities if we will let them happen.

IMHO, the OS4 vs MorphOS ("red vs blue") struggle was a sad part of our history.  Sadly, now the fight for the "true Amiga" has grown to include Classic and AROS and any kind of emulation and PPC vs X86 vs XYZ.

I would like to see an end to the silly trolling and hostilities. Surely there is enough room for all of us.  I'm not saying that we have to agree or use the same system, but at least we should be able to tolerate each other.

---
redfox

Very well said. I've been expressing this sentiment for awhile myself. I think having all these options is a positive thing.
And unlike the majority of people voting on the latest poll, I think the Amiga is far from dead.
We're seeing more development now than we have in a long time.
Hopefully with the new FPGA projects and AROS 68K we'll soon see continued development of the original platform on an open basis.
PPC implementations continue to be enhanced and AROS X86 will provide yet another alternative (at a nice low price).

From my point of view, things are going pretty good.

[Iggy]

What a strange attitude you and smerf have.  I would much rather run AmigaOS on a G5 than a SAM440 any day.

Why would you not want to run AmigaOS on faster hardware?

I am baffled by this seconded opinion myself. If I thought using 2nd hand hardware that Apple has abandoned support of was somehow supporting Apple I might be able to understand this idea.
But all I want is faster, more affordable PPC hardware and this stuff has surprised me as to how good it runs (if you don't rely on Apple for the OS).
Believe me, I suffered at a company that had purchased Apple IIIs and I'm seriously worried about the hubris common in the Apple community. Often seriously flawed products are introduced, touted and supported by Apple and its user base until they relize how bad an item is.
Besides the afore to mentioned Apple III, I remember the Newton. No wonder Apple was hesitant to produce a new tablet.
And, I still don't understand what market they think is going to embrace Apple TV.

But I am happy with the cast off G4 and G5 products. They make continuing to support PPC OS development affordable (and fast).

[Iggy]

all the power to you Piru:) I'm having a blast with my retro machines and my Samflex running OS4.1 too and neither of them have to run at 5 GHz for me to have fun;)

btw, my aversion to Apple products really has nothing to do with MOS as i respect all the work done by any parties world wide to keep the Amiga spirit alive !!!

The thing about the SAM under OS4 is when running DVDs or video of similar resolution your pegging your CPU at about 100%.
With the processor I've got in my Powermac (which is more than 2X more powerful) I can easily run 720p video and some 1080p videos.
And it cost me a fraction of your Sam.

5 Ghz is a bit of problem yeah, requiers dry ice or nitrogen, but 4Ghz is easy, my pc is doing that on air cooling.
 
But I'm also having a blast with them, though I think Natami would be better with a full 060 FPGA.

Yes, I'm barely overclocking a Phenom X3 @ 3.3 Ghz and I never experience any CPU related slow downs. But running UAE just doesn't feel the same. Ragardless of what diehard legacy hardware users think, I believe all the NG hareware/OS' feel very Amiga like.

And I think your right about the Natami. %0 Mhz and higher 68060s are still available and not emulating the CPU would leave more room for enhancing the chipset.

[Iggy]

The SAM460ex isn't going to be any better than a PowerMac, though.
I guess if you just want to keep the ball rolling for AOS, then it's one of very few options, but I don't think I could justify the cost personally.

The problem is Acube's focus on relatively low power Applied Micro processors. Not only do Acube's products demand a fairly high price, but their performance per Mhz is lower than a G4 (let alone a G5). And while I really like A-eon's X1000, its really hard to justify the price when a G5 will perform comparably at a much lower cost.

I'd like to see some new MorphOS hardware, and I (and a few others) have investigated the idea. But its going to have to be more powerful than an Acube motherboard and less costly than an X1000.

[Iggy]

but the point I'm making is that we are moving forward and finally not going backwards when AI had us all in a strangle hold.  Amiga has it's own dedicated hardware that's brand spanking new and reliable....so far the Sam440 was successful enough for ACube to make the 460ex & hopefully the X1000 will be successful enough for A-Eon to make the next 'better' PPC Amiga hardware on so on etc. etc. etc.

AROS is rocking along with no schedule to make the x86 camp happy so the future looks bright for both PPC and x86 Amigans world wide:knuddel:

There is something there we can agree with. It's a shame we're not entire rid of Bill McEwen. Now he's managed dilute the definition of what an Amiga is. Frankly. I can't think of anyone who's done us more harm.

And new hardware! This is great.

I now you don't agree with those of us using Macs, but consider this,  MorphOS was designed to run on PPC equipped Amigas, it was ported to one of the first NG platforms (the Pegasos), and our developers are doing what they can to keep our system alive and moving forward.

And, personally, I disagree that there is a blue vs red camp fraction. I'm glas AOS is in Hyperions hand and I wish them continued sucess.

[Iggy]

Its the first thing that came to mind.
 
The point Im trying to make is.. I'd love to be able to buy something thats completely compatible with amiga stuff, has a bit more oomph to it, is an actual machine rather than just UAE, and is new.
 
 
My crappy PC running linux was 400 bucks at fry's. It does more than Morph, aros and OS4 ever will be able to do, combined.
But that's not really what it's about for me.

You almost sound defensive about your position. I can understand the Linux/X86 arguement (why not I own PCs).
But your Linux box (unless you're running AROS) doesn't allow you to develop new code using tools and system calls similar to those we used to use on the Amiga.
And I have copies of Linux, Windows and UAE. MorphOS feels closer to a real Amiga than those solutions. And why not, it was intended to move the original legacy hardware forward.
BTW - Did you know the endianess of X86 processors is different than the 68K and PPCs (and ARM for that matter)? X86s do not run legacy code as well as they could because of this. Its a good thing that X86s are fast because they lose about 50% of their efficiency running this emulation.

You want a better solution for your Linux box? Consider native X86 AROS. As its UAE integration improves and native apps become more common, this systems going to become more and more authentic in action and better in performance (than many other NG OS').

And really authentic (and probably still a bit slow)? The FPGA projects (Replay, Natami, Minimig) are probably the way to go.