MorphOS on Power Mac G5

[Iggy]

G5s have definitely gotten a bad rap as far as their thermal properties go. Apple didn't help by using liquid cooling on the last units. It makes it look like that was necessary, it isn't, it's quieter. G5s at 2.7 Ghz have no more rigorous cooling requirements than an Intel or AMD processor (in fact, compared to some of those, their cooling requirements are lower).

And I understand Karlos' argument really well. I fact, since I recognize that I'm not going to be doing anything with a G4 Powermac that I can't do with a 1.25Ghz eMac, the first Powermac I've put together is a 1 Ghz Quicksilver. I'm pretty sure I can overclock this to 1.2 Ghz (which is close to my current 1.25) and if third party CPU upgrades are supported I can go as high as a 2.0Ghz 7448 (the fastest MDD upgrade is a 7447 which would be less powerful).

I don't expect to be able to decode HD video without high CPU usage or a video card based decoder. And, as before, there's going to be some applications that the system is either not powerful enough for or that software doesn't exist for under MorphOS. I also not pinning my hopes on hardware that's not going to be available in the immediate future and I'm glad to see that AmigaDave thinks the same way.

Will G5 support be cool? Will we be able to keep pace with AmigaOS4 hardware? Of course, its going to seriously kick ass, and we'll be paying less for our hardware.

The thing that Karlos is aware of and that I must admit I'm painfully aware of (as someone who worked for a company selling 68K based computers in the late 80's and early 90's) is that even if we have reasonably powerful hardware we're facing an impossible task.

Its simple, with the number of Windows and OSX computers sold each year the market for software for those machines is very large. As the time and energy necessary to create good software is also quite great, developers gravitate toward those markets with the greatest potential to make a profit.

As such, many great ideas and even better alternatives (to the current dominant platforms) have failed in the past. We need to keep our feet on the ground and remain realistic. The chances of a mainstream revival are slim. Our market does seem to be enjoying a period of renewal and growth. But, our systems and our software still serve a hobbyist market. Whether they will ever serve as primary systems of production remains questionable.

[Iggy]

I don't know Karlos, with current AOS and MOS revisions not supporting SMP I'm not convinced that X86 is the way to go yet.
And how would a 32bit OS without memory protection (and in the case of MorphOS a 1.5GB memory limitation) compete against existing X86 OS'?

With MorphOS, assembly language is still within my reach (as the number of PPC instructions is still manageable). With an X86 processor? No, I'm going to need higher level programming tools.

There are a lot of reasons I can't support another platform change just yet.
And AROS is there's for those that want to switch. Right now we're spread across 68K, PPC and X86 platforms. That diversity may be of benefit to us.

[Iggy]

The problem wasn't power consumption but power density.  The 970 was so small it spread it's heat over a smaller area (i.e. the chip was small the heat per mm sq was higher) and the only way to avoid this was use liquid cooling.  The actual power figures were close to AMD and better than Intel.

That is a common misconception about the 970 (along with the idea that Apple overclocked the processor to run at 2.5 and 2.7 Ghz).
It can and has been air cooled in other applications.
I have considered switching cooling solutions as part of a repackaging project, but it might be easier to retain the cooling blocks.

A multicore PC with multiple instances of UAE beats a G5 running MorphOS easily.              

                                                    

As UAE only runs 68K apps, that's hardly the point. We're talking about a PPC OS.

[Iggy]

I'd take some quotes from past postings, but the back and forth bickering has gotten more than a little tired.

If you're a user of system 'x' and you're satisfied, fine. There's still a good chance I wouldn't find your favorite system all that satisfying.

If you're like me, and you've never found a ideal system, then you realize that all hardware/OS combinations present some compromises/flaws.
Fine, then things can only improve.

How does divergence of opinions and platforms hurt us? It doesn't. I agree to agree or disagree with any of you and still feel good about the current state of our community. Cus' there's a whole lot a shakin' going on.

[Iggy]

Kudos to all of you for still bouncing this one back and forth though.

BTW - Where did any of you get the idea that MorphOS users were down on the X1000? Is it just because we think G5 Apples are a betters solution?
Personally, I'm impressed with the Nemo design and even sent an e-mail message to a former contact at Varisys congratulating them on it.

[Iggy]

It might have been in the numerous X1000 threads on AmigWorld.net and MorphZone.

I'm on MorphZone regularly and the majority of posts I see (at least from the knowledgeable posters) are appreciative of the X1000.
In fact, we had the processor figured out before a lot of others and were suspicious that there might be a connection to Varisys several months ago.

While I don't see the MorphOS developers porting to Nemo, that market is served already by AOS4.

Perhaps what you perceive as negative  are just statements of confidence in the current direction we're headed. G5 Apples are a natural evolution in the direction MorphOS is headed.

One of the primary reasons you don't see MorphOS on Acube or other AOS platforms (beyond the fact that the manufacturers won't help pay for the port) is a continued desire to see both systems prosper. Why step on Hyperion's feet? They've helped get this rolling and the majority of us are willing to share this market segment (PPCs).

[Iggy]

@Karlos,

  I totally agree with you that both MorphOS2.x and AmigaOS4.x desperately need more software and developers to write that software, but having more varied hardware choices certainly won't hurt our chances to get more software and developers, it should help at least in some small way.

@kolla,

Now you are just trolling for your personal enjoyment.  I had forgotten how childish you could be.

That first statement above I couldn't agree with more. And with three OS' and the increased number of users, porting across the Amiga base should be easier than into it from outside systems.

As to the second, I don't mind those who sit on their own respective sides as long as the majority of us continue to remain objective.

The more contact I have with all Amigans, the more my respect for the community grows.

BTW - Karlos, thanks for the 64bit flash package!

[Iggy]

What we have here is a win win situation. For those that want os4, get one of the various bits of hardware. Morphos runs on Macs... If I was a developer I would make sure that releases can run on both, if such a thing is possible. I'm curious to see what sofware is developed in the future.  Sure as hell beats the legal limbo of the past few years.

Exactly! I really don't expect to see many packages that are exclusive to either OS. And the presence of competition may drive both development teams.

As to Kolla's "issues", apparently some of us take the matters we discuss to heart and they become argumentative and defensive.  Luckily, most of you seem to be able to maintain your perspective.

[Iggy]

It'd be hilarious if Hyperion released a version of OS4 for G5 Imacs or the Graphite G4 (cheapest most common) or  something like that.

Even better just fold and port it all to intel. Come one... if this stuff ran on intel, you don't think they're be Morphos or OS4 netbooks?

 

I doubt that's going happen and that's not quite what I meant. And, as we've repeatedly discussed, X86 is covered by AROS.

Again, with each OS devoted to different platforms, our base is increased. Both your ideas leave us cannibalizing each others sales.

[Iggy]

Takemehomegrandma makes a conciliatory statement. Everyone seems agreed to allow each other to pursue whatever they feel like.

G4 Powermac/MorphOS support is supposed to be very close (yesterday being the tenth anniversary of MorphOS).

G5 Powermacs and the X1000 to offer some parity between MorphOS and AOS4.

And AROS progressing nicely for those who insist on an X86 platform.

Time to put this thread to rest!

[Iggy]

Well, so much for even, fair and balanced.

Let's get ready to rumble!

Kolla, takemehomegrandma - I love you BOTH so much!

[Iggy]

Kolla, that posting wasn't funny the first time. Just gross and stupid.

You're not trying very hard to prove you're not a troll.

[Iggy]

Yes, it had some comedy highlights, and Karlos made a good point about blue vs. red trolling.

As to whether or not it makes sense to plan for G5 support under MorphOS, I'd buy an eMac (I have). Why forgo using something right now because something better might be introduced later? If you did this with any platform you'd always put off purchasing as there would always be something better on the horizon.

I already have a Powermac standing by and I may purchase a G5, but since these are not currently supported I didn't wait to take the plunge. Right now eMacs can be had for under $75. That's cheaper than a Mac Mini, more powerful than a Pegasos or a SAM, and probably better suited to MorphOS than a multiprocessor, high RAM capacity, ultra fast system. MorphOS only uses a single processor/core, only supports up to 1.5G of Ram, and the best video cards supported are the R250/9XXX.

That makes the eMac perfect for MorphOS. Why would you wait for G5 support? Karlos is right. There isn't any current software that would greatly benefit from the extra processing power.

[Iggy]

I hope I won't trigger an infinite loop by writing this.

But yes, there is current software that would greatly benefit from it (media players, encoders, web browsing / flash, emulators, ...). They are current, and often used, at least when you use MorphOS as your main system.

This doesn't mean the other points "against" Powermac G5 don't stand of course (consumption, noise, only a single core would be used on MorphOS and so on...).

I just strongly protest against this statement that no software would make use of it.

OK, I can buy the media playback argument, but web browsing isn't a very processor intensive task. Considering my habit of having multiple tabs and windows open, I'd want more video memory and a better GPU.

And there is the argument that more CPU power is always useful.

Right now I'm hoping that a least one or two Powermac accelerators with either a 7447 or 7448 processor get supported. That would give us 1.6-2.0 Ghz processors.
Currently, an MDD Powermac with a 1.42Ghz 7455 or a Powerbook with a 1.67 Ghz processor may be the highest speed processors that get support soon.
For older Powermacs, an OWC CPU upgrade to 1.5 Ghz might work as well since it uses the same processor (the 7455).

G5s at 1.6 to 2.7 Ghz would be considerably faster, but we're probably not likely to see support for video cards above the Radeon 9800 at first.

[Iggy]

...Media is another good argument, many DSLR cameras now have video encoding and this is high bitrate, high definition H.264.  I'd like to see what a G4 can make of the 1080p files I record...

It's ironic but it's the other platforms are doing it the "Amiga way", they use dedicated hardware for video en/decoding (usually hardware blocks on the GPU chip).  Phones do the same, right the way up to 1080p.

I think I've mentioned this before. Some of the current video cards we have support for do have MPEG2 video coding hardware, but I don't think its being used.
More recent cards also have support for more advanced video formats.
However, if we don't take advantage of GPU assisted video en/decoding, then a lot of CPU cycles are going to get used even with a G5.

[Iggy]

I don't know about everyone else, but I don't think porting MorphOS to the G5 is stupid.
I just think waiting until the G5 is supported is stupid.
We haven't even been given Powermac G4 support yet (I've got one of those waiting).
Before G5 support is introduced, I'll probably have one of those too.

But right now we have two cheap Mac G4s available with support (the 1.25 Ghz eMac and the G4 Mac Mini).
I'm not in any way against G5 support. I just don't think it makes sense to wait when G5 support probably won't be introduced till next year.
And these two Apple systems are already more powerful than all currently available AmigaOS hardware.