[UserReview] Vampire V2-128 received and it's just pure p0rn.

[Kremlar]

Sounds like Hyperion feels very threatened by the classic market, especially with products like FPGA Replay and Vampire.  A-EON likely feels the same.

I believe the NG market will dry up very quickly if the classic market continues at this pace.

[Kremlar]

Also, I don't think AOS 4 users are going to flee to M68k/Vampire as -- which should be very very obvious by now -- they want something different than M68k users. I bet a lot of them are going to buy an A600 and Vampire and probably enjoy it a lot, but abandoning AOS 4? Most probably not.

True, but the problem is the survival of AOS4 depends on the growth of its userbase, which primarily comes from the pool of classic users.  With significant growth and advancements on the classic side to keep users interested the move to a NG platfrom is not nearly as enticing.

[Kremlar]

It depends on what happens next really - and by that, I mean where the few remaining devs we have choose to invest their time.

After all, we already have OS4, MorphOS and AROS competing for users as the 'NG' platforms - Vampire makes 'classic' Amiga's viable for bigger (I won't say 'better') and more modern apps and games but aside from massively accelerating Workbench its current utility is limited by the (mostly old) software available.

There's always the possibility of gaining new developers that were simply not interested in NG and previously bored with classic.  I'm not sure how big that possibility is.  It will be interesting to see, especially once standalone boards are available which could attract people who don't like messing with old hardware.

If all users wanted was a blazingly fast classic Amiga then that's been available for years in the shape of UAE. Right now the Vampire is a novelty (and a fantastic technical achievement) but it's way too early to say how this is going to pan out.

That's true, but many users do not like emulation and FPGA (either as an upgrade or even standalone) is much closer to real hardware.  It feels more "true" than WinUAE does, and for some that matters.

I'm actually quite concerned this could potentially fragment the Amiga user-base more (if that's possible) since because the Apollo core's proprietary there's no guarantees that anything new it brings to the table will be available in (for example) WinUAE, MorphOS etc. potentially resulting in Vampire-only development that shuts out the wider community.

That's very true.  This will be a test to see how big the active classic community is.  If they continue to advance the platform at a reasonable price and sell lots of units (upgrades and standalones) the upgraded classic market would likely dwarf the NG platform.

[Kremlar]

People almost forgot it... Amiga world is a market too... very small but a market. If f.e. 4.X covers needs most users do not have then they do not buy it. Simple as that. Vampire or other projects do not change that or do you think people will buy X5000s because of desperation?

I don't think people buy NG Amigas out of "needs".  I think they buy out of curiosity and entertainment, and boredom with their existing product.  They like their Amigas, the current product is stagnant, so they look for the next evolution.  Some feel that's AmigaOS 4.x, some feel it's MorphOS, some feel it's AROS, and I think most have not bought into any of the above.

I believe forward-thinking activity on the classic front will keep classic users more entertained with their existing platform.

I thought about an X1000 when it was announced.  I exchanged emails with Trevor about beta testing, but when I saw the price I backed off.  Not because I can't afford it, but because I couldn't justify it and I have not regretted my decision.  Not necessarily because of the money, but because of where the platform has gone (really nowhere).  Even today, playing with classic systems is more entertaining to me than NG.

Is there any doubt that Natami would have easily outsold the X1000?  Even if priced at $1000?  I think it would have outsold it tenfold.

[Kremlar]

need is also just using something for hobby like people collecting certain things or using oldtimers in spare time. Need means people want something. For many obviously the NG route never was interesting, they would never buy used macs or expensive PPC hardware even if their existing hardware would break. More propably they would use UAE or drop out at all. My personal view. So I do not think that Vampire harms PPC sales.

Need is not want, but that is not the point.  I would say that I "need" a computer that does email and web browsing well - that's why I have a PC.  I "want" to have an Amiga, which is why I own my Amiga related hardware.

Even Trevor/AmigaKit/Hyperion admit to survive they need to bring in more users, and the most likely potential new users (by far) are existing classic users.  If things progress with FPGA, and especially if AROS gets some steam behind it, I believe it will absolutely hurt PPC sales.

I don't believe the existing user base can sustain the platform.  How many people bought X1000s?  How many of those will upgrade to X5000s?  I believe X5000 sales will be considerably smaller than X1000 sales.

Look at how many users complained that they had to pay for AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition - and it was cheap.  Are these same users going to keep paying to sustain the platform?

We will see!

[Kremlar]

Amiga is "want". For "need" you need decent new software, something people really want to have, perhaps even unique. That is much more than recompiled slightly updated old software. Difficult to get there.

I agree.  Usually there's a chicken/egg syndrome, but in this case it seems the new hardware will come before the possibility of new software - and the hardware is cheap enough that I think it will sell lots, especially once they release 500/1200 and standalone versions.  This works because the hardware is beneficial to all users, even before new software.  But if/when new software is written the hardware will be even more beneficial.

In his recent interview Gunnar seemed concerned that people may not have the motivation to write significant new software because the Amiga user base is so small.  This is true, but it didn't stop him from working on this project so you never know!

[Kremlar]

Now that i've owned it a year, i must say i love installing the OS, customizing things (yesterday i got back and forward in browsers working with extra buttons on my mouse with allkeys), i love changing backgrounds, and getting things to work, like mplayer, google drive, printer, etc...

But thats about it.

The software is different now, but that's what I loved most about my Amiga back in the day as well.  That and some games, and of course showing off the capabilities of the Amiga vs. the PC.

Nowadays there's nothing to show off since, as you said, even the NG hardware is very outdated and the software is just not there.  

So, is it worth the price of an X1000 just to tinker?  For some it is, but not for most and not for me.  And is tinkering that much more fun on the X1000 vs. the classics?  Personally, I enjoy tinkering with classics and FPGA hardware MORE than I would on the X1000.  But I can understand that some users are bored tinkering with their classics.  For me time is short and I haven't spent much time tinkering in decades, so there are worlds left to explore when I do have the time.

But that's what the Vampire provides even today - lots more room to tinker, even for die hard users who may have been previously bored with their classics.

[Kremlar]

With the Vampire requiring AROS, and only new software being able to make benefit from the improvements Apollo core has over old 68k - what benefits are there in running AROS on Apollo core vs running AROS on a cheap ARM or AMD64 system?

First of all, I don't think anyone is saying the Vampire would REQUIRE AROS.  Second of all, I believe they are suggesting the possible use of AROS to replace Kickstart.  You would still be able to use Workbench.

[Kremlar]

Err, what? Of course the sources for 3.X exist. It's not developed because everybody here tells me "go away, we have no interest in it". That's a difference. Again, I've no problem if people prefer AROS - that's a choice everybody can make - but don't tell me that there are no sources for 3.X. There most certainly are, and they would be most certainly be used if there would be interest in a - albeit closed source, paid - development. So please, let's be honest about this. If you prefer Open Source - good. But that doesn't mean that the closed source sources are lost in time and space and that there would be nobody that would work on them.

Please... of course people want OS 3.x 68K further developed, especially with new/fast hardware becoming more and more available.  If a new version with significant updates was done it would surely sell more copies than OS 4.x (assuming it was priced reasonably).

[Kremlar]

We, as users dont need to trust on Hyperion, we need to trust on the developers, like you or whoemever they might be (Olsen?)  

...

Meh.... if money goes through Hyperion to the developers, and they don't get paid, development stops.

I'd prefer to see AmigaOS 3.x in other hands.  Does Hyperion truly own AmigaOS 3.x with rights to sell?

Then again considering they wanted $10K to license P96 for use with the Vampire I'm sure their asking price would be ridiculous.

[Kremlar]

So it is not included - I get conflicting information here

Kipper2k's page indicates they have purchased some Kickstart 3.1 licenses and will include them on all future orders.

[Kremlar]

you are being pissed off not because the original developers are not getting their share, but because hyperion has missed an opportunity to intermediate and gain on that.

Bingo!

[Kremlar]

What? I'm sorry, I don't know what you're thinking. I don't mind Hyperions demise, nor do I work for them, have a contract with them, have received anything from them, nothing. I mind the demise of AmigaOs. There was a window of opportunity that would have allowed an ongoing development of the Os. Unfortuantely, it does not work without Hyperion. No, I do not like this either. If you see any other chance how to work on AmigaOs - let me know.

Yet you advocate for working with Hyperion regarding the P96 deal?  Doesn't add up.  If you truly cared about the authors' of P96 best interest you would be encouraging them to work with Gunnar on compensation.

Saying they can't be bothered to work with Gunnar and only want to deal with Hyperion seems silly.  If they wanted compensation for the license they would deal with Gunnar directly.  Who doesn't want 'free' money?

If they wanted to sell the entire product to Hyperion directly and no longer bother with licensing then they should do that irregardless of any deal that Gunnar might or might not make.

The whole thing seems like a shady play by Hyperion to get some cash to stave off starvation.  I truly believe that the sooner Hyperion is out of business the better it is for the Amiga community.

I think you misunderstand the whole open source thing, or are putting too much weight on the opinion of 1 or 2 people.

Most prefer AmigaOS being open sourced or AROS over continuing to fund Hyperion for pretty much nothing in return.

If a legitimate update to AmigaOS 3.x was released for a reasonable amount of money I think it would sell, even if the money went to Hyperion, but it would sell more if Hyperion were no longer involved.

[Kremlar]

What? I'm sorry, I don't know what you're thinking. I don't mind Hyperions demise, nor do I work for them, nor do I have a contract with them, nor have I received anything from them, nothing. I mind the demise of AmigaOs. There was a window of opportunity that would have allowed an ongoing development of the Os. Unfortuantely, it does not work without Hyperion. No, I do not like this either. If you see any other chance how to work on AmigaOs - let me know.

Also, then if there is a window of opportunity make it work.  Contact Hyperion and convince them of this opportunity with this new FPGA hardware being released.  Even if Vampire did not succeed (seems very unlikely), there's FPGA Arcade and others and these products will only get better and faster.  Come up with a deal where you (and/or others) can work to update AmigaOS 3.x and release a new version.  If you believe there is a market, and I do too, then make it work.

Perhaps there is a deal to be made where you are compensated based on the # of units sold, which gives you incentive to produce a worthwhile update.  If you can then keep Hyperion out of the food chain.  Perhaps they money goes through a vendor (Cloanto, AmigaKit) and a portion of the sales go to you and the other portion is paid to Hyperion, otherwise you may be waiting forever for a check from Hyperion.  People would also feel better about giving money that goes to you vs. money that goes to the abyss that is Hyperion.

Don't complain because some people on the forum would prefer AROS - it's only because they have no confidence today in Hyperion and AmigaOS 3.x development!

You are right, there is a window of opportunity between now and when AROS is developed to the point where it is a reasonable replacement for AmigaOS 3.x.  Without development work on AmigaOS 3.x AROS 68K will likely get lots of attention since this FPGA hardware is gaining so much traction.

Seize the opportunity!  If Hyperion will only deal on ridiculous terms you'll get your answer - AmigaOS 3.x is dead while in their hands, and not because of the users but because of them.

[Kremlar]

Awesome!