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Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« on: May 31, 2009, 10:15:37 AM »
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Just because A4000 introduced AGA that didn't mean that people stopped writing for OCS/ECS.

Yeah, true... And this refusal to see and embrace evolution is what helped to kill the Amiga... People always refused to accept newer technologies. AGA sucks, GfxCard sucks, AHI sucks, paula can do better,... and in the software side: memory protection is performance killing,...

And that's why people using an OS and a computer outdated in almost every aspect keep thinking it's better than monsters of technology created today...

Yeah, OS of today are heavier than Exec written 24 years ago... But there's no way Amiga could be used for anything productive. You do not reboot because a program crashed anymore. And guess what ? even Apple is doing multitasking nowadays...

If you ask me, the lack of memory protection is an heavier handicap than having extra processes doing nothing (especially when seeing the power/memory we have today).
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 10:27:51 AM by warpdesign »
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2009, 10:19:11 PM »
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It's NOT refusal to see newer technologies, but looking at REALITY as it is. Just because a few big companies got together and made some superior graphics card and declared the previous standard "obsolete" does not make it obsolete in the REAL WORLD. Millions of people that still do not have that graphics card still have to be supported. Not everyone follows (nor should they follow) this vicious cycle of computer technology having to be upgraded every year or so. So the original point that when AGA came out, people still wrote for OCS/ECS is good and valid.

Well, reality is that Commodore may not have been dead if people had bought and developped for (new) AGA machines in mass... But I guess this is also Commodore's fault... They had to convince people, they failed to do so...

Of course it's not valid. When people still wrote 32 colours games, anything concurrent was displaying more colourful pics (be it the PC, SNES,...), and way more powerfull... How could the Amiga be compettitive this way ? Well, it couldn't. And that's what reality is about. This is just market/business. Of course people still used it. And of course people still bought ECS games (for a limited amount of time though). But a market that isn't dynamic is a dead market... Guess that's what happened.
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2009, 01:55:05 PM »
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2. You miss the point: if you take out third party security software from Win XP you are very likely to get infected with any number of malware very quickly.

Well, since there is no antivirus in Amiga, no protection, no user level (yes, any program will run as root level), how time do you think it would take to just format your harddrive by some virus ?

This argument is void. If Amiga suffered maybe 1/100th of the attacks targeted to Windows, how secure would it be ?
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2009, 10:14:32 PM »
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You don't see the relevance that when applications install under Windows they fill up hundreds of DLLs and other bloated files.

Do you see the relevance that you need to install dozens of custom classes with MUI, some applications refusing to work because you don't have version xx, etc...

Amiga needs to improve here.

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Bullcrap. AGA is backward compatible with OCS/ECS as per spec.

Still, there is no garanty it will work. Why do you think you needed to degrade your Amiga 1200 to play some older games ? Why do you think a lot of demos/games made for ECS are crashing or have garbage instead of sprites unless you patch them with WHDLoad ?

Seems like it's not 100% compatible... What's bulcrap is you saying the contrary when the proof is there with the hundred (thousands ?) of OCS software that needs to be patch to work with AGA.

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How come MP3 sounds like uncompressed linear 16-bit audio? Sometimes you can't tell the difference. You can't go by feeling; you have to look at it logically that it CAN make a difference.

Amiga can't play 16bit sound anyway. Unless you add a soundcard, and use AHI which is far far far less prcecise than anything you could expect... Still it sounds a lot better than 14bit Paula audio, be it mp3 or linear uncompressed audio...

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I told you any game like River-raid that has fast action and shooting can benefit from it. You may get away with less rates, but that's just like audio-- you can get away with 22Khz in most cases.

You're arguing that you need to be able to poll joystick 1000 times a second, but you can live with 22khz... Come on ! :)

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So they are playing catch-up. PCs aren't real-time systems like Amiga is in terms of accuracy.

The point is that neither is a real-time OS. Amiga can be as responsive as you want, just use some apps that uses some CPU, and everything crawls...

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I'm sorry than that it has to play catch-up to Amiga.

What for ? And what is there to catch up ?

What I see is the Amiga is trying to catch up... thousand colours 5 years after it's mainstream everywhere... 3D after everyone... Games ported 3-4 years after they are released... CPU raw power behind...

Who's trying to catch who ?
« Last Edit: June 04, 2009, 10:17:32 PM by warpdesign »
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 11:23:00 AM »
That's funny :)

Once upon a time, Amiga was a superior machine (in terms of hardware) as anything else... So Amiga fans were using this as an argument for the Amiga's superiority.

But then, PC catched up, and even went beyond, with faster gfx, more colors, even smooth scrollings, etc... Sure, it took time. But meanwhile, Amiga only went from OCS/ECS to weak AGA.

And AGA was inferior to anything else, be it consoles of the time or even PC. So Amiga fans had to use another argument... So they switched to the OS, and the fact it was small, when compared with bloated Windows (or Linux,...). And could do preemptive multitasking while OS of the time couldn't (well, MacOS couldn't, but Windows had preemptive multitasking starting from Win95, although the full OS wasn't yet 32BIT).

Today, well... OS are still bloated, but processors are so fast and you have so much memory that's it's not really a problem, especially when compared to the services it gives you: 3D, Games, Video encoding/decoding, webcam, huge frameworks,... And all OS can do preemptive multitasking, even MacOS, yes! ;)

And well, AmigaOS became bloated too: while original AmigaOS could run with as little as 256kb RAM, I doubt you could run the latest with less that 40Mb RAM... And that's without running the bloated browsers that can easily eat as much as 32Mb RAM for a single webpage ! So well... not only the OS isn't that light anymore, but it's also lagging in term of services, functionnalities, security, etc.. no memory protection, no resource tracking, no advanced 3D support (T&L ?), weak USB support (especially for OS4, since Poseidon is quite advanced I have to admit).. So you can't really use the OS anymore as an advantage, or you can use stupid things like "it boots fast"... but since you can reboot every hour or so because program x brought down the whole OS, I really don't see it as an advantage. The last time I rebooted my WinXP machine must have been 3 months ago... and it's no even long compared to today standards.. It's just normal.

As for the hardware, well, Amiga is still trying to catch up... lagging behind, because there's no development made in desktop powerpc. Cause there is no market..

So well, what's staying ?

Well, arguments as stupid as "you may poll the joystick port 1000 times a second, the PC cannot". Well, it's certainly *true*. But it is so useless that no one in the entire Amiga's existence ever mentionned or used it. No one but you...

So really, who cares ?

Now, if people could simply accept the fact that the Amiga has been catched up in every aspect, we could move on.. and work on something great, nice... a true NG Amiga... it surely wouldn't catch PC development. That can't happen anymore. But could be fun, interessting, *fresh*,... like the original Amiga actually.

Running ScummVM+SDL ports on lagging hardware, crashy, old, ugly (yes, grey 2-colours GUI was certainly ok on a TV, but on a 20 inch 16/10th monitor and such powerfull gfx boards you can certainly o better) OS isn't really fun...

Playing with a nice true NG frehs OS on powerfull common/cheap PC hardware could be interesting though... Look at Apple: seems like fun is possible with PC hardware as well... and I ask you to show me the difference between a PPC-Mac and an Intel one without opening it... except that the Intel one would be faster of course.

That was my two cents. You can keep on posting detailed reports on how you can poll the Amiga joystick port faster than anything else, but this won't change anything to that...
« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:27:11 AM by warpdesign »
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2009, 11:24:55 AM »
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The people who don't understand the argument are stupid. Doing a MOVE.W $DFF00A,D0 is superior to polling an analog joystick (period) via port 201h or via USB.

It certainly is. The point is: who cares ?

If this was a real problem I'm sure someone would have adressed this issue on PC hardware. But it seems everyone is living with it. Not to mention no one ever used it or mentionned it on the Amiga either.

So what's the point ?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 11:35:22 AM by warpdesign »
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2009, 10:01:59 AM »
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Yeah, PC jr failed but IBM PC didn't have the colors, sprites, blitter, sound DACs, etc. and it's price was way too expensive for gaming or for home use.

Then they tried again with the PC/AT and blew everything away. Welcome to 2009 ;)
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2009, 10:39:41 AM »
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Creativity is limited by the choices you have. If you have a C64 and want to use colors, your creativity to paint a picture is limited by 16 colors from palette of 16. If you have an Amiga and want to use colors, you can paint the C64 pictures as well as make pictures not doable on C64. Similarly, having just API is restrictive but having both API and hardware level compatibility opens up a lot more possibilities.


True... But on the Amiga the hardware, bandwitch, etc... directly limits your creativity
You want to do C64 like graphics (looking in the PAST), you can, sure. But what about 3D ? Yes, you can be creative and want to do some nice beautiful 3D...

You want to do real-time HD raytracing on the PC, fine. You want to render crysis like graphics, fine.

You want to do something like that on the Amiga. You cannot. No matter you use an API or hardware banging code,... You simply cannot. Because the PC took over the Amiga since years. And there's no way it will change.

The PC wins. Over. Next thread...
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2009, 10:29:32 AM »
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So far no one has shown how to surpass Amiga joystick port in speed using Game port nor via USB joysticks available.

So far no one has shown the advantage of surpassing (or even equaling) the Amiga joystick port.

We could go on and on like this... and the day will come you'll be the only one talking... and maybe (but I'm not even sure) that day you'll discover how useless it is... and that day you'll buy a cheap USB joystick and enjoy nice games of today... wondering... "how did I miss these jewels ?"

I guess we all agree the Amiga's joystick port is more precise than anything available elsewhere. The fact is this doesn't make the Amiga better than anything else... nor does it make anything else catching up the Amiga...

Now if we could simply move on...

BTW: I'm still waiting for you to show me a single Amiga commercial game that cannot be played with an USB joystick because the interface is too slow for it...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 10:31:53 AM by warpdesign »
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 09:20:35 PM »
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however my A1200 multitasks smoothly, and always prioritises my input over anything else that might be needing CPU time.

Really ? Now do this simple test:

1. At idle, open a WB window full of icons (let's say 50).

2. Now run something that eats quite a lot of CPU, let's say 80% (like a video player)

3. Close, and open the same window again

Notice the difference. And tell me again that your input is prioritised...

This is where modern OS perform a lot better. First of all they use cache for any sort of things. So this kind of window wouldn't cause all icons to be reloaded again... Then they scale a lot better with high CPU usage... Something Exec cannot do. Because it's, well, simple...
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2009, 07:20:55 PM »
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That was already refuted a few times. Even if you don't need the high rate to read the joystick, you spend LESS CPU TIME if your joystick is faster.

Do you really think the CPU TIME used to poll the joystick in any recent PC is even high enough to be mesured ??

Come on: it's 2009. PC won (even Apple use PC based hardware), Apple has a multitasking OS, and Sun has been bought by Oracle... Hello ! :)
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2009, 11:29:08 AM »
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You evolve and progress or you die.

Seems like Amiga people chosed neither... They definitely don't want to progress or evolve, neither want to die. Or at least admit they are dead.

Guess this whole thread shows that clearly. Amiga is dead but its gameport is still the best... and so on.
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2009, 08:15:25 AM »
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3.2Ghz Core 2 Duo with 8GB RAM for "light use"

Maybe no one. But in a few months it will be the standard anyway... Like Core2/4Go is now.
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2009, 08:19:58 AM »
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Thirdly $50!!!!!! or $100 if you want to use an OS that sees more than 3 gig ram, and if you're gonna use a ram disk in windows you'd want to be able to do that. Thats more than half the price of of an OEM version of the OS itself..

There are a lot of *free* RamDisk for Windows. No need to spend any money over it. And for years there have been *free* RamDisk for Windows. There were also a free RamDisk for DOS.

Executive *wasn't* free by that time. Some applications refuse to work or crash with some schedulers... This is a hack.
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 08:56:21 AM »
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The Amiga interface (Workbench) is very logical
I wouldn't say that...
Just give an Amiga, a Windows machine, a Mac to people who never ever touched a computer and we'll see which one is the more logical, or... intuitive...