Regarding pricing policy of "OS4.1.7"

[wawrzon]

from where im standindg it looks like os4 needs a lot of funding by all kind if means, like hardware sales, apparently huge third party subvensions, outsorcing and selling os components separately and finally os sales themselves and paid updates. in comparison morphos is being financed only by selling licenses for use with particular hardware and aros is financed by bounties if by anything at all. i dont have any much up to date actual experience with any of these oses, but it doesnt look like there is quantitative difference between them. in this context i must ask myself why must os4 cost so much, if the others do not.

[wawrzon]

Good question wawrzon, BUT cost efficiency aside, Is a total of 120-140 euro too much to ask for a OS from 2008 to almost 2015?

it is not a question of time frame the payments cover but of what has been actually done within this time. maybe im wrong, but i dont see much progress that would have to be particularly covered here. about all fatures that have been annouced as killer features or arguments for purchase have either been cancelled or postponed beyond this time frame, likely cancelled either way.

in comparison i used and still use windows xp systems. i dont count the years anymore, but this is of course not a fair comparison, so i would actially refrain from it if it wasnt brought up before.

[wawrzon]

@niding

it is not a question of time frame the payments cover but of what has been actually done within this time. maybe im wrong, but i dont see much progress that would have to be particularly covered here. about all fatures that have been annouced as killer features or arguments for purchase have either been cancelled or postponed beyond this time frame, likely cancelled either way.

in comparison i used and still use windows xp systems. i dont count the years anymore, but this is of course not a fair comparison, so i would actially refrain from it if it wasnt brought up before.

btw i dont consider the user investments you quote inadequate. in the same time, that means since ive got interested in aros i have put more than that into the different bounties. still most of them already paid off. most aros or multiplatform bounties are additional to what os4 user already needs to pay, but then they usually also deliver what was promissed. as example the 68k kickstart replacement bounty. the result is, that we have actually at least under winuae almost fully functionable amiga system replacement with additional features. plus while that en course a lot of other aspects of aros had to be improved. i think it fairly exceeds what the bounty has originally been supposed to cover.

[wawrzon]

My baseline when it comes to whats reasonable featureprogress is different for NG "amiga" platforms as you can see compared to MAINstream OSs. Its all about realising the resorces available.
If you insist on using Microsoft as the baseline, the relativly few developers on our platforms would never be entitled to ask for a return on their effort. Including all the bounties.
Some think that is a fair way of evaluating, while others (like me) think ok to ask for a bit in return once in while.

reread my post. im not insisting on using ms as reference. i have mentioned it pretty clearly i think. im comparing the amigalike oses what concerns return/investments vs progress&features and the result of this comparison is i think pretty clear.

what i also i consider a very important pont is transparency. i want to know what im investing into and what i support. additionally i like the possibility to fund particular aspects of development i consider important and interesting to me. this all is given and guaranteed with aros option as default. with os4, if not absolutely impossible it is not wanted. it is like stuffing huge amounts money into a black box. maybe something comes out on the other end, maybe not. the outcome is uncertain and from past experience we know usually very little of whats been advertised up front to secure users interest and investements gets actually achieved. sorry, but i find this business model unsatisfactory and not trustworthy.

[wawrzon]

Well, Im no developer, but Ive seen comments about problems taking longer than expected which affects the features developed within x amount of time=missing expected deadlines.

as mentioned countless times there are many repeated examples of what has been advertised, reported close to release, then the public left with no update on the subject or further months and years till eventually someonle mentions it and then it is again being reported as close to release. what if not that should be called "vaporware"? the list is long and includes many features that are available on alternative and less extensively founded platforms, just to name gallium, warp3d, smp, particular device drivers, browsers and other productivity software..

As far as "throwing huge money into a black box"; huge money is debatable, but its all relative.

i think that most would agree that paying multiple thousand just for the hardware to run the system is already huge meoney. then paying te os. paying the neccessary device drivers it does not include. buying all sorts of merchandise and eye candy and then contributiung to the bounties and supporting the developers may resule in even more money.

Imho you have to a certain extent leave sanity at the door when joining a small community like this, with all platforms.

no. you dont. i consider myself reasonable and have never invested in anything amiga i would call insane with one single exception, when i bought a system along with a ppc accelerator. everything else was rather a good value for money. even the relaively pricey deneb card. i have used all that in my work and i i continue to enjoy it till now, which i wouldnt if i was pressed to throw in money i need otherwise. im certain, many feel alike.

And for the developers its complete insanity to spend so much time and effort for so little gratitude generally displayed.

nothing wrong with displaying gratitude. but are the aros developers worth less gratitude? i dont understand why what applies to few does not apply to others.

[wawrzon]

@chris
im not sure if you proposal to release 4.1 fe as 4.2, push the updates back to 4.3 and grant the users promised 4.2 for free a discount on what they have been promised wouldnt in fact put off even more people.

however you seem to be correct, that things seems to be decided without an actual comprehensible and logical plan, but rather based as nervous attempts of damage control

4.1fe has been announced as a stop gap solution this summer, obviously in awareness that 4.2 isnt going to be ready any soon, yet something needs to be announced on amiwest in order to prevent customers dissatisfaction. it looks like it was genuinely planned as a paid update, not a paid full release. in the leaked amiga-future article it looks like its cost is being defended in anticipation of expected wave of criticism and also the development team lead at amiwest seems not to have been updated on the new pricing strategy till the very last moment and therefore spreading outdated and inaccurate information. it really looks like the unfavorable reaction of the public was the immediate cause to offer what likely was planned a paid update as a full release. the already officially announced price could not be corrected, to adjust the return, but newly avaliable ppc emulation could be expected to compensate it at least partly with the higher expected sells. so at least a disaster could have been avoided.

[wawrzon]

If we consider use only 68k software, after year 2000 the fastest Amiga 68k is uae with jit on pc.

Uae with jit on pc has also  the best price / performance ratio.

Using anything else to run only 68k software is stupid,  and wawa should scrap his slow amiga, and should use uae with jit.

i am using uae as well if need be. everything depends on what im particularly up to. usually real hardware along with an emulation is a good tandem to push things a little further.

as for scrapping my amigas, i dont feel like it, sorry. and i dont think i need to explain myself to anyone as to why. on the contrary, a request to distroy amiga hardware sounds for me rather uncalled for on an amiga forum.

[wawrzon]

"unfavorable reaction of the public"

Seems like the reaction is all over the scale, from positive to negative.

All depending on what realistic expectations you had. How you read into articles and presentations depends on your mindset when you read/hear it.

But that is hardly a suprise. What looks like "damage control" to some, is "pragmatic move" to others.

And the list is long.

im speaking about the initial reactions based on assumptions, that 4.1fe will be a paid _update_.

[wawrzon]

Which I guess is why they aren't calling it 4.2, but that doesn't stop them calling it 4.1.7, 4.1.1 or whatever.

exactly.

They really shouldn't have promised things for 4.2 when 4.1 had already been out for a number of years, and the things being promised weren't trivial.

but the reason to promise these things in first place must have been exactly, that the were not trivial, otherwise they would not have any much result on the audience. the mistake is to treat these as actual technical goals, while it seems that instead they are simply publicity arguments. deployed somewhere of far horizont and moving with it they are even more effective publicity than if they were actually ever achieved, because then you would have to create another decoy.

[wawrzon]

Even more reason to promise them for OS5.0 to give a lot of breathing room. Nobody cares if OS5.0 comes after OS4.1 or if we go all the way up to OS4.9 first.

wanna put up with that:
http://downloadsquad.switched.com/2007/10/07/amiga-os5-to-be-better-than-mac-os-x/
;P?

seriously, given that bad karma, even then it is no go, since its too distant already. you need somethimg that seems within reach and then just leaks through your fingers without you knowing whom to blame if not yourself.