Was PCI for Amiga a good choice?

[wawrzon]

some people represent point of view that the genuine further development of amiga (itself being stuck in the past) is hacking together some embedded reference boards along with some off shelf pci hardware, patching the system sources one could got hold of to more-less run on it and then port some aged open source linux sdl software in order to be executed on such systems.

well, jest aside what up to date features does os4 offer in comparison to alternatives or the original today? 3d support, means gallium? fail. multicore support? fail. memory protection plus ressources tracking? fail. variety of up to date hardware drivers? fail. genuine software? fail. main titles ported from other systems? fail...

even last year greatly annonced feature of hacking beyond 2gb ram limit doesnt seem to get a single application.

well, if thats not, what one could call being stuck somwhere, then i dont know..

[wawrzon]

3D support in the form of Warp3D, multicore, is well under way.

warp3d ia an old crippled and outdated system that originates and represents the functionality of 68k era, which is, how you yourself worded that "stuck in the past". it took ages to have it ported and available for the cards, the systems you consider "modern" come equipped with. and this outdated form of 3d support is a result, that they apparently couldnt get gallium done.

There are plenty of hardware drivers, sure you can't pick any type of expansion, install it and expect it to run.

will be good to be notified, as soon as the hardware you are being delivered as an ng "amiga" becomes fully supported.

Amount of software has nothing to do with the operating system.

okay, i know operating system is fun as it is, even without software. for the time being, except of said sdl ports you must be using the old "stuck in the past" amiga software, originating mostly from the last millenium. to the point that the hardware vendors are buying up the sources of the said "stuck in the past" software in order to market it again, possibly with minor improvements.

No one is stopping you developing your own software or drivers.

so a customer is supposed to develop drivers fot the system he would have to buy all by himself? thats how you define "modern" approach? if so, i wonder if documentation to do this is really freely available, without ndas and such, because it really might stop people.

[wawrzon]

@wawa
Don't make the AmigaOS 4 guys cry with your flawless logic.
...

 Then again, some of them still hope to convince us 68k Amiga users to take the expensive leap of faith to a more modern out dated Amiga .

it would be excusable if it was simply naivety on their part. but like its customary with snowball marketing, people are on a mission to convince others to mistakes they have done, not to admit these for themselves.

[wawrzon]

A bit of a harsh perspective that, even if not entirely invalid, another valid perspective would be simply that some people want the Amiga to progress and again become a viable alternative system (I daresay most here, including yourself, wouldn't mind seeing it happen), so it's a case of making the best of it, supporting those who are trying to make it happen in the hope of gaining traction to bring costs down and build a real userbase.

sometimes i get the impression that the policy is exactly that: purposedly not to let the userbase grow beyond what it is, only just drain all the cash it is able to offer. souns weird? yeah, it does. but on the plus side you can keep your secure place locked away from the outside world and keep dreaming what could be if it would be forever.

is it my duty to support that? i woulnt like to think so. i prefer to support, what gains my interest, not what others may demand of me for the sake of their interests. especially if this must involve bashing the genuine system, we all should be actually fans of.

[wawrzon]

You have a champagne with a beer income. You expect Microsoft resources on a limited budget.

Your a naysayer and a person who could not do it with all the money in the world.
Get a grip..

i woulnt get on with something i cant achieve and try to call others on duty to support me, thats true.

[wawrzon]

Wawrzon : you are an old crippled and outdated human, I'm afraid...

well, might be to certain extent, most of us here arent exactly teenagers anymore;)

but i think you have missed the irony of my post. what concerns warp3d, you took offence on, i have tried to help few developers few years back to improve it for 68k in order to get more software working with it, rather than it remaining moreless a tech demo. kind of work you are following up now, i guess. so i realized, that it isnt exactly a masterpiece as it is. it could have been improved, but it wasnt in interest of whoever keeps the sources, sorry to say. the official position was exactly the same as propagated here: amiga is obsolete, outdated system, broken by design not worth support, not even in form of simple fixes provided ready by third party volunteers. instead you are demanded to buy, what is supposed to be"amiga" today.

[wawrzon]

But I would say that those trying to expand beyond retro would have to be more interested in growing the userbase beyond retro enthusiasts by default

beyond retro entusiasts? who would that be? regular mainstream users who want contemporary computing just dont come well along with windows, mac and linux? people who dont like multiprocessing, 3d acceleration, security, all that sort of things everybody takes for granted today, and who can resign on almost any of otherwise available software titles, just want their machine to be ppc?

all the work (with seemingly little visible reward)

now you are telling it yourself, right? little reward.

as opposed to retro..

there is nothing opposed to retro to be found here. no neologisms and new speech is going to help explain that.

Call me Captain Obvious if need be, but retro vs. protro is also the likely source of the dichotomy within the Amiga community. Appealing to both views maybe the ticket or the curse, or maybe there just needs to be an acceptance that the twain shall never (or rarely) meet and each leave the other to their own devices?

apparently it isnt as obvious as it should be. there is no complementarity here. amiga nor any of the follow up alternatíves is not going to become mainstream let alone catch up. the gap is growing every week. it is illusionary.

[wawrzon]

People who want to live in houses would also not like to live in one that is only just been framed, so do you look at the frame only and say it's not worth bothering trying to finish the house because of that?.

in germany there is a term for projects that have been framed for way too long. its "bauruine" or "investitionsruine". both of these contain the word "ruin":
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investitionsruine#/media/File:Soda_Merklinde.jpg
thats exactly the state, we are talking about here.

In response to your suggestion that those who might want to see progression are being fleeced purposely, or words to that effect.

well then, to little reward to the project and to the fans, what reward the investors behind investitions being ruined from the start have seen is another matter, and not of popular knowledge usually.

Whether that is the case at the moment or not is irrelevant and does not prove one way or another that progression isn't possible or viable.

its very much of relevance, because there are people betting on this "progress" or whatever strange words you are trying to call it. time has proven for thousand times by now, that this "progression" is but a myth, in contrary to what whatever amiga ever was and remains is a solid fact.

I never really said mainstream, that is a very distant dream.

its not distant. it doesnt exist.

However, a viable alternative system can still be relatively popular, it wasn't that long ago that Apple was facing annihilation and MacOS, while relevant in a supportive industry, was still very marginal.

another nonsensical apple comparison, as usual. commodore may have been compared to apple, whatever result might be, hyperion can not. period.

But my point is that I'm not trying to convince you that you are wrong, it is your opinion and you have every right to it, but others hold differing opinions based on a different and, some would say in their opinion, more valid perspective, one viewpoint may just be pessimistic and the other optimistic.

another attempt at making everything relative. if everything is only a matter of opinion, none will ever be right, and no discussion may take place. conseqently, you may simply stay away from this topic, since your posts do not mean anything in the end.

Of course, it is easier to be proven 'right' with a pessimistic viewpoint in these situations, and that's the general problem with naysaying, or naysayers - people who would rather be happy to be 'right' about something failing than be 'wrong' when something succeeds, which I find even more sad when the naysayers stand to benefit from success.

your comment may apply to people who are "negative" in general, towards everything. unfortunatelly, im not one of them. im quite positive towards amiga and a number of amiga-projects, even not considering whether they fulfill my expectations or not, rather based on attitude and track of record of people behind them. this has nothing with speculating on "being right" one day, even though (thats scary!) i have been proven right almost in any case i remember to have commented on these forums so far.