OS4 vs MOS vs AROS

[falemagn]

but unfortunately whenever I raised the point in the past it has been dismissed as irrelevant or invalid.

It is, indeed. No offence intended, of course.

The reason it's irrelevant is that it's never been AROS' aim to be able to run AmigaOS binaries on foreign HW, and it's not going to be any time soon.

It's sort of invalid, of course, for the same reason: although I understand that you need to run AmigaOS 68k sw, AROS' goal has never been to do that on other processors than 68k's.

That doesn't bode well for it being seriously addressed any time soon.

I'd say the priority right now is to get the OS as complete as possible, apps come after. We're not in a hurry, we don't expect people to chose AROS right now, we have no schedule we need to stick at. That's the fun part. For us, of course :-)

[falemagn]

However, my earlier point stands: AROS is not an alternative to AOS4 or MOS or Linux or Windows, and won't be for the foreseeable future. From purely a users' point of view, an OS without applications is pointless.

Your earlier point stands only in your view, as other posts in this thread prove: for as much as it may sound nonsensical to you, some people think AROS is an alternative. Applications will come, people will port them, will build them from scratch, and so on. What it takes is just a little of confidence in the project itself, people just need to get used to the "Open Source" approach, and I'm sure as soon as TCP/IP is there, together with FAT32 support, people will start using AROS on a more daily basis: developers first, porting their preferred network applications, the simpler first (ssh, telnet, wget, and so on), then the more complicated ones (web browsers... even Mozilla, you never know!), then everything will come by itself.

We don't need to have transparent 68k compatibility. It's impossible to have it anyway, on x86, without resorting to the Amithlon approach, which, quite frankly, is not the right approach for an OS. And Bernd will agree with me on this.

[falemagn]

I was simply looking at AROS in a dispassionate way. I know you've always said that applications will come, but for me (and this thread does ask for personal opinions) that approach offers no confidence in the project at all.

Fine with me, but then I'd be curious to know which approach would offer you confidence in the project. Because, you see, by the sound of your words it seems like there's no way out of here: AROS is doomed, in your view, just because it's AROS.

But feel free to correct my interpretation of your words.

Mindless optimism is fine,

That's your mistake: you seem to think that the only possible way to look at things is yours, everyone else that has another view of the situation is culrpit of "mindless optimism". Don't worry, I'm not offended, but I hope you are able to see the point I'm making.

but it carries no weight with me.

As said, it's fine with me, we're not trying to convince you of anything.

That's why I regard AROS as overhyped and overrated.

So you think that everyone who thinks AROS is, or will be, a good alternative has gone mad?

Amiga applications are mostly closed source, and persuading developers to do specific AROS ports is a bit like relying on a future lottery win. You need to attract users to attract developers, or else stay a hobby project for a tiny number of hobbyist geeks. It's a hurdle you will have to face, and pretending it doesn't exist makes me believe you will never get over it.

So, basically, all you're saying is that any new OS is doomed from the start, because of course new OSs, without applications by definition, can't have users, and without users there cannot be developers, and thus the OS is doomed to failure.

quite frankly, that's an highly semplicistic way to look at things. Look, look at aros-exec.org, look at the number of members and the traffic: I was not expecting that much success, Bill, I was telling Ola and Nicolas (4play and mendoza) that in my opinion it was too early for such a project, that every other attempt at building a community site failed miserably (and for a reason). I've been proven wrong.

So, if even I, with my "mindless optimism", to use your words, can have my negative moments that get proven wrong, then perhaps it's not as dark as you make it look.

But I'm open to suggestions, and constructive criticism: I'm not saying AROS is the best choice, I myself tell people that they cannot expect anything special from AROS right now, but despite my warnings people seem to like AROS, we've even gotten a successful community site, heck! That must mean something. However, as said, I'm open to criticism, so, what would you expect from an effort like AROS, Bill?

No offense intended, of course.

No offence taken, of course.

[falemagn]

Regarding applications, what I describe as "mindless optimism" is the expectation that people will just develop for it and port for it because it is like AmigaOS, despite the fact that there aren't any users and there is no visible market.

Who told you that? No one said "people will code for it because it's AmigaOS", I certainly have not. I just said that applications will come, either from the core AROS devs, or from people who like it and find it fun to code on AROS and for AROS.

Hey, this is how AROS got where it is now, why should this process suddendly stop?

When I ask "why?", the answer seems to be "they just will, you'll see".

Apart from the fact you're oversimplifying the kind of answer you get, what is wrong about that answer? Why should, say, a web browser never appear, for instance? Hey, there's a whole OS there, do you really think porting applications is that difficult?

It's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when. Of course, given AROS doesn't lose its momentum, and I don't see this unfortunate event happening any time soon.

As for the community, much of it is the result of the hype.

Hype coming from whom? No one is preaching the AROS verb, you don't see me or any other AROS devs going around saying "come to us, we are the best ones", people talk about AROS because they like it, developers join the team because they like it, people contribute in whatever way they want, because they like it.

Face it, Bill, AROS is here to stay, and it'll become what the community wants it to become.

How many people on aros-exec.org use it or develop for it on a daily basis? 10? 20? 100? Less? Most of the AROS enthusiasts are there because of what they want AROS to become rather than what it is likely to be any time soon.

So? What's your point? They are free to make AROS become what they want it to become. Did you miss, by any chance, that AROS is Open Source? Did you miss, by any chance, that even you can contribute to AROS? If you want AROS to become something, then make it happen! In the end, Bill, what matters is what you want. And you don't seem to be able to tell me what you want, from AROS.

I don't have a ready answer for you, but yes, following the current priorities I do believe AROS is doomed.

Perhaps you didn't notice, but I've asked you to, please, tell me what do you think are the right priorities. Still waiting for an answer...

Or at least doomed to linger indefnitely on the verge of being a serious OS, but never quite getting there.

Then so be it. Honestly, Bill, who gives a damn? :-) If that is what AROS will become, it just means that that is what you, and the rest of the community, wanted it to become. And then, does it matter?