Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s

[amigaksi]

>by Tenacious on 2008/6/8 10:32:31
>
>@ bloodline
>
>Why are you here? What's the attraction? Why is it worth your >time?
>
>I've wondered for months (but I'm not loosing sleep over it, >Grin).

He's only speaking from his own limited experience and understanding.  I have had the opposite happen to me-- new-in-box amiga products trashed by my family.  It would be good if someone did pick it up.  You should take gold even from a filthy place.  Then again, he never claimed it was a bad thing otherwise it would be hypocritical of him to be supporting amigans if he was against people picking up "good" things from trash.  I mean if you are against drinking, you don't go to a bar and help people take drinks.  

Main thing is people are looking for happiness rather than have the latest technological machine.  I just looked at Frogger for Atari 2600 and it's an addicting game and although the graphics are poor compared to Atari 800, it's playability is different from Atari 800 and I can see people sticking to the Atari 2600 version.  We already see the trend of people going retro after being satiated with the latest computer.  And the efficiency cannot be denied, it's amazing how they fit all the functionality into about 4KB.  I'm sure people with experience programming amigas/ataris can learn all the bloated APIs of the modern era quite easily.  They were using Atari 800s in my college in the 1980s (not Atari STs).

[amigaksi]

>Oh get over yourself!

The only thing about myself in that reply was that I am one of the exceptions to your statement:

"Amiga = smelly homeless guy looking in bins for things the rest of the industy discarded years ago..."

I am sure there are many others who are in my boat-- they got their amigas as new or via other channels like Ebay or friends so your remark:

>I was describing the state of the Amiga, rather accurately as it happens...

is wrong.

>Sure nothing wrong with "dumpster diving",

We agree on that point.  To add more details to this, you should rethink that what "industry discards" does not necessarily mean it's bad or obsolete.  They may have other reasons for discarding it.  They never used the standard 9-pin digital joystick ports in IBM or Apples but that does not mean it's refuse; same for many other things.

>but unfortunately that is state of the art with respect to the Amiga...

That's not true-- just your opinion.

[amigaksi]

>Did you even read the posts before mine?

Yes, but looks like you missed a lot of posts where this topic of uniqueness of amiga was discussed elsewhere.

>It's not wrong... The Amiga is Homeless, no parent company to look after it, it's got no job and can't be found in shops, and smelly as it's had nothing new in years.

If you want to define it that way.  But it has technology that is unique.

>The number of weird threads that want some old PPC chip, or desparatly clamouring after various old technologies... is perfectly sums up by "Looking in bins...etc".

That's not looking in the bins.  If you can get away with a simpler design for the purpose at hand, there's no need to get a 4Ghz processor.

>>    We agree on that point. To add more details to this, you should rethink that what "industry discards" does not necessarily mean it's bad or obsolete.

>Yeah, it does. It means both. Industry will cling on to technology long after it has reached the end of its design life if it is either good or useful.

You are not in touch with reality here.  Industry makes it's decisions mainly on sales and marketing and whether it fits the target machine.  In the Atari ST, they left out the blitter chip, RF modulator, stereo PCM sound, etc. until later on in their STE series.

>What advantage does a custom DE9/DB9 have over something like USB?

You are comparing a serial device with a parallel one, since the comparable would be a game port or parallel port, but let's take it up for the sake of argument:

>The DE9/DB9 is:
>Bulky;

If you need parallel lines of communication, it's not that bulky.  USB requires examining a bitstream whereas a joystick port, you can read with one instruction.  

>Subject to ESD/EMI noise;

I have done full throttle on the Atari joystick port without any noise.  In fact, I was able to read the data on some machines even without the ground pin attached.  If you target a faster machine, you can also update the circuit for the joystick port yet keep it pin-compatible like they did with PCI version of parallel ports.

>Can't be hot swapped;

MPDOS allows hot-swapping of joystick ports on Atari/Amiga.  It's a software issue.

>Prone to pin breakage;

That's a lame excuse as if they stopped using pins.  I have many usb cables that when bent around the connector or come under a chair lose their connectivity.

>Unable to carry hi-speed data;

I already explained that above.

>Expensive (compared to USB);

Serial port connectors are the same as DB9 connectors and cost next to nothing.

>Require complex attachement to motherboards, 9pins vs 4pins(for USB);

You don't get it.  You can simulate multiple serial devices with one joystick port not the other way around without slowing down the interface.

>Too big for use on mobile devices... really I could go on...

>Do you still want your DE9/DB9 connector?

Ever heard of ISA parallel port being updated to PCI?

>No, I would have stated that it was my opinion if it was my opinion.

Since what you stated is not fact, it must be your opinion.

>I can't think of anything about the Amiga that isn't obsolete, but that is just my opinion, I've not done formal study

That's the problem, you have to know both machines before you compare them else you are just expressing your opinion.    Timers was already discussed, overscan mode, simpler real-time analysis, etc. etc.  I can also go on.

[amigaksi]

>Sure, my main machine is a 2.33Ghz Dual Core... that just about meets my current needs... though Logic 8 is demanding more CPU power


> Is this an example of the Chewbacca Defense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_defense)
...

You did not even address the point but are being incoherent.  You can't point out an advantage that USB can be used on mobile devices if your machine is 2.33Ghz dual core desktop.  You have to stick to comparing one computer with another not all the modern technologies with the Amiga.  

>The physical operation of the device is irrelevant... The function is what is important. There is no functional difference between parallel and serial connections, the only difference is their operation.

How many serial connections can you put on 4 parallel lines?  What's faster:  In AL,DX or examining a serial bus with all it's commands?

>No one needs parallel links anymore, LVDS has pushed serial links far faster than an parallel could ever operate. It's now easier and cheaper to multiplex on a serial line than deal with skew, noise and capacitance on a parallel line.

You can also run parallel lines at the same speed as serial lines.

>No modern interface uses parallel anymore, everything is serial.

You need to be sure before you make that claim.

>>    MPDOS allows hot-swapping of joystick ports on Atari/Amiga. It's a software issue.

>No, hot-swapping requires that the ground lines connect before any other line... USB (for example) has this defined as part of it's standard. If any other line connects first as can happen with DE9/DB9... the potential difference could fry the support IC.

Why don't you try it out before you speak?  It works without frying any ICs.

>I've bent pins on DB connectors due to repeated insertions... USB (for example) was design for many many many more insertions/disconnections than any DB connector...

I have never bent any pins when inserting a joystick -- been using for 20+ years.

>> I already explained that above.

>You explained nothing... the DB connectors are not designed for hi-speed links, full stop!

Because when your emotions override your rationality, you see nothing but negative.

>Regardless, the connectors are more expensive than USB (for example).

I disagree, but even if you are right would not using millions of DB9s drop their price?  Oh, I forget, you don't think industry works that way.

>Any research on the subject would suggest I'm right, and you are not.

State your research then that shows that reading from a joystick port is slower than USB.  You already stated you have not done any study so why are you making an absolute claim?

>Both? What two machines? I am really quite knowledgeable on technology subjects, I am very happy for it to be put to the test.

Okay, what two machines do you want to compare?  Amiga vs pick-on and then we'll decide if it can do everything the amiga can.

>Timers... The amiga timers are nothing compared to what is available on a modern PC... What on earth does overscan have to do with anything? Any GFX card can display to the edge of my displays (which are LCD).

>You seem to be lacking knowledge of modern hardware.

That's calling "waving the hands" logic.  I don't buy that.  You can control what you put on overscan in NTSC output on the Amiga and Atari whereas you can't on PCs with standard hardware.  You need specialized cards to do it.  Timers are less accurate because modern PCs never saw the need to update them not because they are inferior technology.

[amigaksi]

>You suggested this with your original statement, that one does not need a 4Ghz machine... Actually, I wouldn't mind one... since the software I use demands more power... fortunately, the designers of my software use parallel processing quite effectively, so my Dual Core meets my needs.

There's your answer-- a modern device using parallel transfers preferred over serial.  Imagine if your data bus to your CPUs was serial.  I have my own uses for simultaneous parallel signal processing but you just answered your own question.

>None... what you are suggesting is 4 serial lines... 4 parallel lines would be 32 wires (if each parallel link as 8bit).

Joystick port has 4 parallel lines not 8, one trigger line, two POT lines, one +5V, and one GND.

>You can't... skew, capacitance and noise limit the maximum speed of a parallel link... Compare PCI-E (serial) vs PCI (parallel)

Look, even the USB ports are usually in pairs so you have 4 data lines so if you update the joystick port so that the 4 parallel lines can serve both purposes serial and parallel, it's a superior technology AND backward compatible.

>SATA
>ADAT
>DVI
>HDMI
>Can you think of any other modern interfaces?

Yeah what you stated in the beginning of this message.  All these serial interfaces would be FASTER if they were in parallel but they are trying to save on wires.

>I have been lucky... I have only ever fried one I/O port and that was a PS/2 port... I learned at that point, never to plug/unplug a connector not designed for hot-swap.

You always hot-plug joystick ports on Amigas and Ataris unless you already had them plugged in and there's no warning that you should connect your joystick before turning on the computer.

>Lucky you! I don't even want to think about the number of times I've bent P-ATA pins... Damn, I hate P-ATA.

How about PATA where each line was at SATA speed.

>I;ve never been called emotional before, many thanks... In act my Ex-Girlfriend called me unemotional, so I'm glad you've proved her wrong

You know most of the lawsuits where each party burns money on lawyers finding fault with the other without getting to the truth.  That's called emotional bias.

>The burden of proof is not upon me... and I'm too drunk to care

I have already tried reading from USB and joystick port and given current bloated APIs and device drivers, one IN AL,DX is always superior even with the faster USB port.

>You what? Overscan is an outdated concept... CRTs are well over 100 years old now... Can we please keep to the thread topic an stay in the 21st century...?

Okay NTSC monitors/TVs are outdated for you but not for me.

>I can easily define 2.4Mhz on my MBP... I doubt I could do the same on the amiga without a serious performance hit... hmmm... I think I would probably have to do some weird polling or something on the Amiga if at all...

You want to give an example where you time something counting 2.4Mhz cycles accurately?

[amigaksi]

> Are you sure you're not high? Imagine if the data bus to my CPU was serial... like in the

Intel PCs use data buses for parallel transfers and your example was a PC not a MAC.  Don't change your mind now.  Your "" and "!!!" already shows you did not properly read the msg.

>go and Google Serial vs parallel see WHY high speed links are serial...

I don't google around; I try it myself.  You rely on people's opinions and facts and mix them up.

>>    Okay NTSC monitors/TVs are outdated for you but not for me.

>Oh... So you are the industry now... Lets forget about LCDs and all buy CRTs!!!!

Read again; is that what I said?  LCDs have not completely replaced NTSC/PAL monitors/tvs.  

>>   You want to give an example where you time something counting 2.4Mhz cycles accurately?

>Err... care to give me an example of a timer as accurate at 1Mhz on the Amiga?

You are suppose to prove that PC has a more accurate timer.  You can time things using a copper to a 3.57Mhz timing accuracy. As I told you before, one EOI on a PC will drop your timing quantum to below 1 Mhz.

[amigaksi]

>Good luck with that... even Commodore manuals states clearly: no hot swapping.

My Atari and Amiga manuals don't mention it, but regardless I always hot swap and it never harmed any of machines.

>PATA can't reach SATA speeds... the technical problems are too great... you actually don't know what noise, skew and capacitance mean do you... go on tell me... I dare you!!!

Assuming I did not know, the logic still follows.  You have 4 data lines in 2 USB ports which can exist within a joystick port.

>Your technical inability is not the topic here. We are taking about the value of Amiga Hardware in the 21st century...

Labeling someone with "inability" does not disprove the fact that one IN instruction or LDA instruction in 6502 is faster than a series of instructions to read a USB port.  Simple deduction.

[amigaksi]

>It really doesn't matter if I talk about PC or a mac, the hardware is the same... My main machine is a MacBook Pro...

Sure it does, perhaps the Mac has other deficiencies when compared to Amiga than when you compare your PC to amiga.  But fact remains, parallel transfers are being used in the modern era.

>Try reading a book sometime. I prefer to read the latest research papers (my Chemistry education allows me to understand rather advanced concepts) and find out what's going on in the REAL WORLD...

I actually GO AND SEE it in the REAL WORLD after reading the books instead of speculating on what the paper is stating.

>Tell me one reason why any person would by an NTSC/PAL CRT over an LCD device now?

Higher contrast ratio.  To match colors with broadcast signal.  I remember showing a demo in outdoors and you can't see anything on the LCD but the TV looked okay.

>Well Stop avoiding my question, and we can talk...

Before I waste time writing you code that uses 3.57Mhz timing accuracy, are you claiming that the PC timer is more accurate than the Amiga timer? (just yes or no).

[amigaksi]

>By luck, not by design...

There's no such thing as luck as you already tried to use logic to explain it.

>It's totally different. Why would you use two USB lines?!?!? Simple slect USB-Highspeed if you need the bandwidth... or preferably use Firewire...

I hooked up the USB myself to my PC and there are four data lines so all I stated was someone could have incorporated that within the joystick port and maintained compatibility.

>We are talking about the 21st century!!! The topic of this thread!

Yeah, so am I.  One MOVE.B, (IN AL,DX), LDA is faster than multiple of them.  And if the joystick port was updated to PCI bus, it would run faster than USB even at the hardware level avoiding all bloated APIs.

[amigaksi]

>Name me one modern interface that is parallel? I have a long list of interfaces... your turn now.

All my PCs use parallel transfers from CPU to RAM, level 1 cache to the CPU, PCI bus to RAM, etc.  My own project of floppy simulation REQUIRES parallel signals being modified in real-time.

>I don't speculate, I trust testable research. Are you 12 years old?

I am going to PROVE that you are speculating and misleading others who believe you.  I am not stating the research is wrong but YOUR understanding of the research is wrong because perhaps you have not yourself actually done it.  see below.

>My iPhone is LCD based yet in the summer light the display is as clear as a peice of coloured paper... amazing to see actually!

Again switching between PC, Mac, and now iPhone.  We are comparing your PC w/LCD w/quad core or 1000-core to an Amiga.  All the LCDs I have tried in the outdoors give a poorer picture than a TV.

>>    Before I waste time writing you code that uses 3.57Mhz timing accuracy, are you claiming that the PC timer is more accurate than the Amiga timer? (just yes or no).

>Yes. Simple really.

Okay, I will PROVE you are wrong here as I already have done in another thread.  I will post the code-- which do you prefer 6502 (Atari) or 68000 (Amiga)?  Whichever is easier for you to understand.

[amigaksi]

>The 'modern' PC is a piece of junk. It's designed to be (partially) backwards compatible with systems that no one in their right mind would _ever_ want to actually use. Of course, the PC architecture has changed significantly from the days of AT PCs, probably to the point where very little code from that era would actually run on a brand-new PC.

I think backward compatibility is a good thing, but they can definitely keep the backward compatibility and improve other aspects like hardware standards.  Due to lack of hardware standards, people resort to programming at the API level which definitely slows down the software and then again how many people nowadays actually learn to program at the system level or even know the system they are programming.  Even the USB issue being discussed would be better if there was a hardware standard for it rather than using device drivers.

[amigaksi]

>Actually 2 data lines... each line is a twisted pair + and -, this elmiates noise in the signal of the link.

No 4 data lines.  There are two usb ports that I hooked up from a set of PINS on my motherboard to the front.

>You really don't actually know anything of modern systems do you?!?!?

Keep your speculations to yourself.  If you read anything I wrote in this thread, you would not ask.

>So why are we not using your system, and instead using the horrible bloated USB?

Because of lack of hardware standard.

[amigaksi]

>Ok, over distances of 1um a Parallel bus make sense... you stated the DB9 connector, I don't see chip designs rushing to integrate DB9 connectors on their latest CPUs...

It was regarding integrating USB into the DB9 and simulating a dual USB port as well as using 4 digital lines for joysticks not on the cpu level.  That above was an answer to your erroneous claim that parallel interfaces are no longer being used.

>Well you talked about LCD devices... so I mentioned one that I have that works really well on an English summer day... My MacBook Pro is perfectly visible in broad day light too, but my iPhone looks the best, as it is the newest LCD I own...

Read the specs of 19" LCDs and TVs and see the differences for yourself.

>I honestly don't care... the it's an irrelevant issue... I can do stuff in realtime on my MacBook Pro that I can only dream of on my Amiga... so what the F**K does it matter?

Now all of a sudden it's irrelevant!  Every software written that utilizes the higher accurate timing will NOT work on your PC.

[amigaksi]

>That is not what you said. you said that a USB port has 4 pins. That is true, but they are not simply 4 parallel data lines, they have very specific functions... don't start changing your argument mid discussion.

Here I'll quote myself (you can go back and re-read it yourself since I have not edited any of my posts):

"Look, even the USB ports are usually in pairs so you have 4 data lines so if you update the joystick port so that the 4 parallel lines can serve both purposes serial and parallel, it's a superior technology AND backward compatible."

I just PROVED that what people write and what you understand are two different things.

>>Because of lack of hardware standard.

>No, it's because of physics. Please understand that you can't defy the laws of physics...

I am not.  Hardware standards are faster ways to access devices than software APIs.  

[amigaksi]

>Two serial interfaces are not the same as a single parallel interface... their mode of operation is very different. Don't be an idiot!!

You know you can't understand things if you get too emotional as I already stated so.  You don't know that you can program parallel ports already in different modes so that could have been another mode of operation.  Q.E.D.

>Go on then, what software won't run on my Mac or my PC...?

If you are just going to call people names, you can search it on this forum yourself.