MorphOS 2.0 Released

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Jeff wrote:
It looks like the final price for MorphOS 2.0 will be 150 Euro.

Oh wow! That's pretty steep! OSX 10.5 is cheaper than that, how do they justify that price?

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stefcep2 wrote:
what runs on it?

This is kind of the point! While this is really good news and well done to the MOS team for getting this together, it looks raelly good... but €150... for that money you do want to actually use it for something...

People on here talk about small dev teams and small volume sold to justify a high price... but, it's hard to accept when it is essentially just a luxuary item, not something that one actually needs!

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stefcep2 wrote:

ffastback wrote:
@bloodline

bloodline wrote:

People on here talk about small dev teams and small volume sold to justify a high price... but, it's hard to accept when it is essentially just a luxuary item, not something that one actually needs!

No one "needs" anything Amiga related anymore.  We could all be spending very little to run Ubuntu machines only at home.  Of course we could all eat tuna out of cans to save money and not go to any nice restaurants every once and a while.  We could all trade in the cars some of us own to get 60 MPG on a vespa scooter.  We could tell our wives that they never "need" a nice handbag from Coach.  Whats your bloody point?

 No one said it was a "need".  Its a luxury item as you say and its not making itself out to be anything but that.  Sure it can be a useful one, but a luxury item nonetheless.  The big difference is, while Coach makes a bundle on the handbag, and the ritzy restaurant makes a bundle on your meal, the MOS team is likely taking a loss on this whole affair.  The way you talk it would seem your advice to them would be not to develop anything at all.  Its a hobby and hobbies cost money, especially ones that have a small amount of hobbyists.

By "need" I think he meant is it of any use.  An operating system is no more than a means for running software.

Yes, this is my point. The only reason to Run AmigaOS, for me, is to run certain applications that require it... But I can run AmigaOS on my A1200 or UAE (more often than not)...

Therefore what "What runs on it?" is a legitimate question,in the context of what an operating system's purpose for existing is.

What we need for MOS is a "killer app" that needs MOS to run... that would justify its high price.

I bought a £1000 Mac with OSX 10.4... just to run Logic Pro 7.1 (the software itself costing ~£1000 at the time). Apple made Logic Pro OSX only, I had no choice but to switch to OSX.

No-one NEEDS expensive jewellery: it IS a luxury item that serves no purpose other than as an adornment, but nobody expects anything else from it either.

An OS is not the same thing. Amiga's are still useful eg to play old games that only run on AmigaOS, to use productivity software that runs only on AmigaOS.  Sure there maybe better alternatives,but thats not the point.  Whether you can do ANY of this with Morphos is the question. YOU might consider it a worthwhile hobby to just be able to start up an OS so as to open and close a few directories, and gaze at the pretty icons and backdrops, for most other people the novelty will wear off pretty quickly if thats ALL you can do with it.  

This paragraph explains exactly my question! €150 for a very pretty system that can't do as much as my Mac (or Win box) and can't run as much software as my AOS3.1 system... that's a cost I find hard to justify.

I think perhaps €40, is the very very most I could spare just to run an OS for the sake of running an OS (bear in mind I also have to buy a new computer to go with it also!)... though... If I want that I just fire up AROS, play with it for 20mins and feel all sad how the Amiga could probably still be here if a few stupid choices were made back in the day...

This question is even more relevant given the fact that its not easy to find out what you can run on Morphos. (I tried before posting)  Thankfully (eventually) someone posted a link.

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spihunter wrote:

I think the ridiculous high price tag on MOS 2.0 will make it less appealing to buyers and newcomers.  A lower pricetag would make all winners at the end.

I cant belive all the B#*$%ing & moaning I'm seeing all over the place about the price.

You guys must never try and buy Amiga stuff at its current market value. This is a steal for a modernized AmigaOS on $99 hardware thats faster then the old PPC boards.

To do what with it?

It is a high price when I can do more with my existing Amiga and Mac/Win machines... my point is that the MOS team need a killer app...

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spihunter wrote:
@bloodline,

To do what with it?  It is a high price when I can do more with my existing Amiga and Mac/Win machines... my point is that the MOS team need a killer app...

Since when has any Amiga had a killer app besides maybe Hollywood anyway? Go use your other machines for awhile and let us have our fun here. :lol:

Because I'm poor, I'm not worthy of using MOS 2.0 :-(

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itix wrote:
@stefcep2

My very first post was the question :"what runs on it?" because despite searching the simple morphos site, and more besides, I could not find a list of software that run on Morphos. But no-one answered my question. Another guy more or less raises the same question, no-one answers and he therefore reasonably concludes that if no software runs on it, then its too expensive for him to spend that sort of money on hardware and an OS that doesn't run any software. The obvious thing would have been for people like you to enlighten us both with your knowledge of what, exactly, runs on it. But no, he's then attacked for being too tight-arsed to support the developers that have worked so hard to release this. Again no-one bothers to say what runs on it. So if you can't run any software, what else can you do with the OS but "close and open directories and gaze at pretty icons and backdrops, with not much else". When a list of software that runs on Morphos was posted I acknowledged this. No-one is begrudging you your new toy, enjoy it, but don't attack me just because I asked a reasonable question that Morphos fans like you seemed to not want to answer, and in fact seemed to deliberately avoid.

I have to say I would have expected that every Amiga user knows that MorphOS can run system friendly (RTG/RTA) Amiga software starting from Kickstart 1.0... maybe we should be more verbose about it.

Yes probably... But the question really is: What software needs MOS to run? Which then leads to, What software needs MOS and is better than what I already have?

A platform only needs one killer app to sell it!

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First off, can every one stop having a go at stefcep2... I jumped on something he said because it rang true with me.

I know I come across as overly harsh, and believe me, I know better than most how much work has gone into MOS! But I do think I am raising important questions, it the MOS team can answer them they will have a seriously competitive product on their hands... if you just sit there as apologists and make excuses, without thinking about what MOS really can do, where it need to be targeted and what is the key points required for the success of an operating system.. in it will go the way of all the other Operating systems that have come and gone.

Sure compare it with SkyOS... which is cheaper and runs on standard hardware... and still SkyOS is nothing... there has to be a lesson to learn here... I despise wasted effort and inefficiency!

The only compelling argument made here is that it is the only AmigaOS binary compatible computer system one can buy right now... but and in answer to the post quoted below... why would I choose it over UAE?


Or.. you could forget everything I have said and we watch the MOS team sell 20 copies... and disappear forever... It's up to you, at least I have tried.

JKD wrote:

Yes probably... But the question really is: What software needs MOS to run? Which then leads to, What software needs MOS and is better than what I already have?

I'm not sure it's even a relevant question:

1. The platform runs AmigaOS legacy software better than any other Amiga platform
2. The platform runs legacy WarpOS/Warp3D software better than the original and any other Amiga platform
3. The platform even runs (ran?) some OS4 only software as good as or better than the hardware platform for that.

*at least on comparable hardware
**the exception being hardware banging stuff obviously

It was designed as a transition to a NG OS but without losing the legacy so that an enitre software base was already available.

That opportunity is probaly long past and it's doubtful an NG OS will be realized on a realistic timescale so I think the devs have focussed on making it a rich enviroment for backwards compatability with some great new additions but firmly rooted in an Amiga-like OS/enviroment.

Thinking the 'Amiga' will 'come back' is delusion.

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Tempest wrote:

The only compelling argument made here is that it is the only AmigaOS binary compatible computer system one can buy right now... but and in answer to the post quoted below... why would I choose it over UAE?

I can think of a couple of things:

1. You don't have to boot a host OS (Linux, MacOS, Windows).

It is easy enough to auto start UAE or even WInUAE on a system, so that you would never know the host OS was there...

2. Because classic software runs far more responsive and faster on MorphOS than using them with UAE.

That's not true... the JIT on my Dual core 2.33Ghz Core2Duo is going to be faster than a JIT on any PPC... and UAE will allow hardware hitting Apps.

-Edit- I will grant you MOS is prettier than AOS...

3. There's software available for MorphOS which you're never going to see on classic Amiga's because they are just to slow to be usable. Blender, Pixel32, MPlayer, VLC, emulators, games, etc... Just to name a few.

Err... just run them on a modern OS... they are not platform specific!!!

Come on, you can do better than this...

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Tempest wrote:
bloodline wrote:

It is easy enough to auto start UAE or even WInUAE on a system, so that you would never know the host OS was there...

The point is that the underlying OS slows things down emulating an Amiga wich make's it unresponsive.

So the Quark kernel of MOS doesn't slow the emulation of 68k programs down... but the Linux kernel (or WinNT kernel)  does?

How do you figure that? Do you even know how an Operating system works?

That's not true... the JIT on my Dual core 2.33Ghz Core2Duo is going to be faster than a JIT on any PPC... and UAE will allow hardware hitting Apps.

How good UAE might be, I find it very unresponsive compared to a real Amiga. On MorphOS running on my Pegasos 2 classic software feels more responsive.

If you paid the same money on PC components that you do in the MOS system... you would not experience this unresponsiveness...

Err... just run them on a modern OS... they are not platform specific!!!

That's not an argument, why run an Amiga(like)OS at all if you're thinking like that

Which is the crux of my argument, and what I was asking you to justify...

Come on, you can do better than this...

I know I can

Please do :-P

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Golem!dk wrote:

So the Quark kernel of MOS doesn't slow the emulation of 68k programs down... but the Linux kernel (or WinNT kernel) does?

How do you figure that? Do you even know how an Operating system works?

Are we just trolling now? Try comparing responsiveness of UAE and Amithlon, yes there is a difference. Now imagine if the OS itself is running native as well, ie. no emulation. There really is a difference. Sure, some current x86 box can emulate 68k faster, but there is more to it than that.

Any speed advantage would come from MOS being better/newer than AOS that one would run on UAE.

But now even the cheapest x86 can outperform any PPC one could buy to run MOS on...

But even then  I ask you what actual advantage running Amiga software as stupid speeds gives? I often have to slow my UAE down (more compatible, with more accurate chipset emulation) to make software work...

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Tempest wrote:

So the Quark kernel of MOS doesn't slow the emulation of 68k programs down... but the Linux kernel (or WinNT kernel) does?

How do you figure that? Do you even know how an Operating system works?

UAE has to emulate everything of an Amiga, MorphOS only emulates the processor, that's a big difference! Do 'you' know how an OS works?

Select RTG, set the Chipset emulation to lowest priority and least accurate emulation... use the JIT and set the CPU to emulation to run as "fast as possible"... a modern CPU is so powerful the few wasted cycles are hardly anything worry about.

If you paid the same money on PC components that you do in the MOS system... you would not experience this unresponsiveness...

I've got an up to date system, thank you very much. I'm running Debian Unstable fully optimized to my needs. Don't get me wrong my main OS is Linux, I'm not an Amiga zealot, I use Amiga(like) systems for fun.

Try WinUAE then, it's better than E-UAE :-P

Anyway, I don't see how the responsiveness (whatever that actually means) of the system actually makes it more useful...

Which is the crux of my argument, and what I was asking you to justify...

Ooh, I've answered you pretty well I think, you are just not open for reasonable arguments.

I assure you I am reasonable. The problem is that I sit right in the middle.. reality I call it... and don't see eye to eye with the zealots... The good ones who support new Amiga products but do irrationally, or the bad ones who are just plain weird (Like Atheist).

Please do

I won't be bothering you again, go play with your UAE and be happy.

Your loss, not mine. I will and do use UAE to run the few remaining bits of software that are still relevant and all my old games.

You obvisously aren't openminded enough to apreciate anything else than your beloved OS, be it Windows, MacOS or Linux.

My beloved OS being AmigaOS 1.3... I can't use it for anything but I still love it... it was my first, you never really stop loving your first. My favorite... probably OSX as it's the most useful to me.

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TheMagicM wrote:
@bloodline/all:

if you're happy with UAE by all means, use it and quit griping about MOS since you're not going to use/buy it anyway.

As far as what Amiga OS software runs on MOS, there isnt a definitive list.  Do you think MOS Devel sat down and installed every single application to verify its compatibility?  No, thats not their job.  itix answered it well, "MOS can run system friendly (RTG/RTA) Amiga software starting from Kickstart 1.0".    

The years long whine "I can get an (insert cpu) and run *UAE at (insert speed factor) times the speed of (insert system)".  Well then go get it.  I dont see you spending any money on any Amiga hardware.  (Refer back to my first sentence up top).  I bet you didnt even buy a AmigaOne when it came out.  (refer back to my first sentence up top)

So it all boils down to...you wouldnt buy MOS even if it was for $125 because then you'd need an EFIKA, a case, a graphics card and a hard drive...and you'd whine about that too.  

EDIT:
The EFIKA runs circles around the best, top of the line Amiga.  You want a compact OS like AmigaOS, well its arrived.

Ok, fair point.

I just don't understand why... And I don't like not understanding.

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TheMagicM wrote:
@bloodline:

My post wasnt intended as a "stay out and stfu" either.  Dont want you to take it the wrong way.

No, but I am unnecessarily and unintentionally winding people up... No one here is really give good answers (probably because the purchase of such  a system is irrational) it is probably best for me to quieten down.

Some people have valid points when it comes to MOS price.  I'm going to pay the $250 price because I'm putting my race car back together, getting married Aug 2nd, honeymoon 2 weeks later, have kids..so registering MOS will happen in August for me.


But the argument of this is faster than that, why run this? Comparing a full featured OS like OSX, Windows, Linux, just isn't fair.  The Amiga world turns slow..it takes a while for things to happen.  :-)
 

Well, In the past I criticized AOS4.0 because unlike MOS (which came with the PEG or could be DL for free for PowerUP boards) and AROS, one had to pay for it... which I felt was stupid and fleecing Amiga users... I would be a hypocrite if I didn't offer similar objection to this news.

If the MOS team were to release some amazing Music or Video editing program tomorrow which was a totally radical approach to such work... and they tied it to MOS... in an instant the price becomes justified, for example.

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motorollin wrote:

I *had* a PegII, but I realised that I had spent a lot of money on it only to find I did nothing with it that I couldn't already to with my A4000, so I sold it. The EFIKA would be a nice, (relatively) cheap way to tinker with MOS so would fill both needs. Also, I have always wanted to build a custom case with a small motherboard, so I might as well make it an Amiga-like machine :-)

Ahh, now this I understand... I did much the same... though I bought a 800Mhz VIA Mini-ITX and run AROS on it...

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TheMagicM wrote:
ffastback has a valid point.

Now here I have to object, ffastback does not have a valid point. He has not formed a valid argument.

He is ignoring the point I was trying to make, and simply taking personal objection to my question.

If bloodline is throwing MOS under the bus yet he's an AROS developer...sounds like a little bit of jealousy methinks.

Not at all. MOS has better developed GFX and audio drivers. MOS is prettier than AROS and can run OS legal 68K apps (which AROS would also be able to do on a Big Endian CPU). I also prefer the Two level structure of MOS, with the Quark micro-kernel under the AmigaOS compatible environment on top (much like AROS hosted).

AROS has benefited greatly from a close relationship with MOS.

I agree also w/his point.. spending $279 for MOS+ EFIKA, what will the equivalent get me for AROS?  

Look at it the other way around... How much would you have to spend to get a functionally equivalent (or at least as close as possible) AROS based system?

Whatever bloodline's points are against MOS, insert AROS into those sentences/questions and see what answers you come up with.

Since my only negative criticism of MOS is with respect to the high price (with respect to usefulness), not technical criticisms... I would like to think the answers you come up with would reflect my own.