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Offline bloodline

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« on: July 02, 2008, 11:35:22 AM »
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codenetfx wrote:

Most people who buy Macs use them for fairly mundane purposes - surfing, Photoshopping, digital lifestyle stuff :) and I do not see a single reason why Amiga cannot do the same or better *today* with or without OS 4.


Apple were pretty clever in the early part of this decade, and bought up a load of productivity softawre and made it OSX only. Take Logic Pro (the Audio production osftwre I use), Apple bought it from Emagic, and built their OSX audio subsystem around Logic... now Logic works beautifully on a Mac... And only runs on a Mac... it's a killer App, I have to buy a Mac to use it. Apple even give away a cut-down version of Logic Pro (called Garage Band) with every Mac for free!

Logic Pro is just one example of this, Apple have plenty of others... mostly video and gfx software.

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PPC cards are so rare and expensive that without additional "inventory", they only add to the predicament of Amiga OS 4. Following the same thought, if someone was able to design a PPC card, designing an Intel-based card should not be far fetched.


Not such a bad idea.. moder x86 chips are really too advanced, and the amount of interface chips would essentially make the acelerator an entire x86 computer.. but maybe one of the older x86... a nice idea... but once you support x86, it's better/cheaper/quicker just to use an off the shelf x86 board.

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Port OS 4 to Intel, then sell the OS CD with the card as one package. If hardware was available, I am sure applications would grow around it fairly fast, given Amiga's user base.


Well, lets just stop all this talk of OS4 ported to x86. Hyperion Don't want to do it (they ahve stated this on many occations). Hyperion have also stated that they legaly cannot do, since they only bought the right to write OS4 for the PPC. Amiga Inc. and Hyperion are now in court. There will be no more working between them. It's over, OS4 stops at the PPC.

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I also like the AROS idea, but lack of binary compatibility is problematic. However, I keep reminding myself how elegantly Apple solved the "old mac" issue with Carbon.


You have confused Carbon with ClassicEnvironment. Carbon is NOT binary compatible with Mac OS9 apps, it is only API compatible with OS9 app. Developers could take their OS9 source code and recompile it for Carbon, and their app would work on OSX. In that respect AROS is a bit like Carbon. OS9 apps do not work on OSX, unless you use the ClassicEnvironment...

The Classic Environment is a Virtual machine, much like UAE, except it doesn't bother to emulate the CPU (this is why ClassicEnvironment only works on PPC OSX Macs). When you run an OS9 app on a PPX OSX Mac it is actually being run inside an Emulator which has a hidden interface.. i.e. all interface calls are passed to OSX so the app appears to be runing in OSX.



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Could not AROS emulate "old Amiga" and still pave the way towards the new, running on some cool Intel hardware with clear hardware requirements? I am not aware of "Classic Amiga" emulator (WinUAE) for AROS but it seems like a feasible solution, particularly for games and demo scene. Would not that be cool? 68K that runs way faster via software and a great Intel-based OS underneath.


The plan for AROS is to hide UAE inside AROS... much like the ClassicEnvironment... so that 68k apps would actually be loaded into the hidden UAE and all the apps windows etc would be displayed on the AROS desktop as though the app is running natively.

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What nobody wants is some AmigaAnywhere stuff which smells of overcooked java beans. I think we all identify Amiga with some cool metal, silicon and software :) - not more, but also not anything less.


AmigaAnyware doesn't even make sense in the modern computing world.

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MorphOS also looks good, but seems to be PPC-based, which is a no-no since there is no hardware available.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that binary-compatible WinUAE port for AROS would make Amiga a viable platform once again. And open source to boot.


I agree, and have done since 1999 :-D

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2008, 11:50:57 AM »
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codenetfx wrote:
@ persia:

I spent some time today to read up on current status of AROS and it seems that UAE (WinUAE was my lapse, I meant to say UAE of course) port already exists (mentioned on the FAQ page). On the same page, it also says that 68k emulation does not work because of little-endian vs. big-endian issue (not quite clear why this is an issue, as WinUAE runs on Intel even though Intel should have the same issue and does not - maybe it just needs to be clarified).


68k is not a problem as long as the 68k programs are not allowed to interact freely with the x86 programs. That is why we want to take the approach of putting the 68k apps into their own little VM world of UAE and carefully control how much interaction they have with x86 AROS.

If we simply integrated the 68k emulator into the OS like MOS and AOS4, then the 68k apps would be allowed to "play around" with the x86 system structures... the problem is that on x86 data is stored : "DCBA" (little endien) and on the 68K the same data is stored: "ABCD" (big endien)... so 68k apps in a x86 environment will read the data the wrong way around, and thus fail.

Things get even more problematic when you use the 64bit x86 verion of AROS (which is probably more advanced now than the 32bit x86 version).. where the 68k apps have no concept of 64bits at all (no 68k Amiga software is 64bit compatible) and wouldn't work even if the x86 was big endien!

All my x86 machines are 64bit now...

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In any case, UAE could provide backward-compatibility while AROS could provide API compatibility going forward. Either way, it would be Amiga OS compatible. I will definitely take a look at the Virtual Machine they made available for download which contains AROS.


Yes, exactly.

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Natami is a great project, but my concern is that it may not be able to serve the market. If it does, great. If it does not, I will continue to look at AROS. Worst thing that can happen is that I will learn something new about Amiga OS, APIs and emulators.


For me AROS + UAE integration is the way forward... but someone needs to get on with the 68k version of AROS to make this a reality. Since for this to work we need a 68k version of AROS :-)

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2008, 07:10:21 PM »
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codenetfx wrote:

Interestingly, drivers are the hottest topic on AROS project. To push Amiga forward, we need to roll up our sleeves and write some drivers (for AROS) to support high-end components (such as those cool Voodoo cards cooled with two fans and 512MB RAM).


I'm sorry? Voodoo cards haven't been made for 10 years... a $15 ATI or Nvidia card from your local computer store will be many orders of magnitude more powerful!!!

AROS does all right for drivers... since the generic hardware drivers that come with AROS offer more than enough performance for any Apps currently available...

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Mobile platform for Amiga is a project in its own right, possibly even more far-fetched than OS4 on Intel :)


Since there are no AmigaOS clones for the ARM CPU (at this time, I know there is a guy working on Compiling AROS for the ARM) and nothing about the Amiga's interface or architecture particularly lends itself to the mobile Arena... I really can't see why a mobile Amiga platform is particular attractive?

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AROS works, looks good, boots up in no time. Apps included in the VM distribution are very quick, hinting at great performance under the hood.


It is more fun on real hardware :-)

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2008, 07:29:24 PM »
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A6000 wrote:
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koaftder wrote:
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persia wrote:
The problem we have is defining the niche that the Amiga or it's successor should aim for.  It's a hobby computer with an interesting past, but who, other than aging Amiga users from the '80s will it appeal to?  


Retro gamers.


Retro(amiga)gamers are a small and limited market.


But it's the only market open to the Amiga...

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We should consider the Amigas' strengths and capitalise on them. They are;-

Efficient AmigaOS, small, fast and adequate.


Antiquated, unstable, insecure, single user, nonPOSIX and no modern software.

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Known hardware, few incompatibilities from unknown hardware or drivers.


Stuck on 20 year old technology... it is going to appeal only to Retro Gamers at best.

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All we need is new hardware to replace ageing or dead hardware.
Amigas' should appeal to anyone who wants a system to work without trouble or a pile of manuals a metre high.


But we are not going to appeal to anyone who wants to use a computer to do anything that one expects from a computer now.

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P.S don't mention the number of bookshelves you have filled with amiga books. :lol:


:-?

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2008, 08:05:43 PM »
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A6000 wrote:
Most people use a computer for word processing, email and internet access, the amiga can do this with some new software,


??? The Amiga doesn't have these basic apps already, so why should anyone waste their time with it?

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programmers could write this stuff for the community, linux has no difficulty getting programmers to write open source or free software so why are amiga programmers so mercenary.


If you can download Linux for free and it comes with everything one needs to do all the basic stuff a user would want to do why bother with the Amiga...?

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2008, 10:37:04 PM »
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Atheist wrote:
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bloodline wrote:

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We should consider the Amigas' strengths and capitalise on them. They are;-

Efficient AmigaOS, small, fast and adequate.


Antiquated, unstable, insecure, single user, nonPOSIX and no modern software.

Hi bloodline,

Antiquated? Can you explain that?


The Entire architecture is based on 80's technology, a few examples;

1. The User interface is based on clipped layers... Modern UIs are based upon 3D surfaces.
2. The Graphics subsystem is based on a palette concept, at 4:3 ratio at very low resolutions and bit mapped gfx... Mondern GFX systems are based on Hi/True Colour, at industry standard ratios, wide screen and there is a move to resolution independent vector gfx.
3. The Amiga Audio subsystem (AHI too) is totally unsuited to modern professional requirements... please read up on "Core Audio" as an example a modern system...
4. The programming architecture is totally outdated... a modern system is object oriented, the advantages of OOP in system programming are too numerous to list here... but, read up on OSX's "Cocoa Framework" and "NeXTStep" to see how modern systems work.

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Single user? YES single user!!! Who brain washed you?


I like multiuser systems, I can have a public account, for daily use, a private account for my sensitive work and a root account for adjusting system settings. Each account is totally encrypted. if I loose my Laptop or it gets stolen the data on the private account would be safe. Keeping the Root account secure means no malicious programs/viruses and user can adjust my settings or install anything. it keeps my machine safe and secure.

I also have a separate account for my brothers to use when they visit, they can mess it up, break it , have the settings anyway they like... install any crap they like, and all their games etc... and it it all nicely contained in that account... should, I wish I could delete it on one go.

I can also log into my laptop while one account it in action, as another user and run it as two separate machines... remotely or locally...  

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Because bill gates SAYS "multi-user is da bomb"??? Single user is WRONG/FORBIDDEN/BLASPHEMY? I must have missed that memo.


I've never run any Windows system as Multiuser... so no... my first multiuser system was Linux... where my girlfriend and myself had two separate accounts. Now I run MacOS OSX.

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NonPosix? Why do I want "posix", okay, what is "posix" and why do I need it? Never needed it before. (At least I don't think so.)


If you want to use any ports from Linux/Unix and 99% of open source software... Then yes, you want POSIX. AmigaOS can't support the fork() function so it can't really support POSIX very well.

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Who can make modern SW on a computer that's too slow to run it?


No one.

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A 68000 can encode and decode MP3, BUT it's not FAST ENOUGH to. (Ray tracing was slow, BUT Amiga COULD do it. Doesn't mean that, "oh it takes four hours to make a frame, guess we'll leave it to people who own mainframes in their garage.")


:-?

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 If there was a 400 MHz 68000, it's probably enough to do it. Motorola stopped making faster 68000 CPUs, so we don't have fast Amigas.


The 68k architecture is not suited to HI-Speed operation... hence Motorola moving to the Coldfire, for future "68k" development.

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An Amiga 2000 could play MP3 too (with no accelerator card!!!). If there was a 700 MHz 6502, an Apple ][ probably could too!


No it can't. To play an MP3 you need to decode it in realtime, no 68000 could ever do that. My 68040 could do some weird low quality thing... but it was horrible. the 6502 can't scale to 700Mhz, the design doesn't allow it.

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Make modern HW available, and the old SW may be fast enough to do anything that is possible today, even unaltered.

NatAmi60 --- "for great justice!!!! - AYBABTU :-D :-D :-D

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bloodline wrote:

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Known hardware, few incompatibilities from unknown hardware or drivers.


Stuck on 20 year old technology... it is going to appeal only to Retro Gamers at best.

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All we need is new hardware to replace ageing or dead hardware.
Amigas' should appeal to anyone who wants a system to work without trouble or a pile of manuals a metre high.


But we are not going to appeal to anyone who wants to use a computer to do anything that one expects from a computer now.

Well, we are a couple notches below, even with NatAmi60, but it's a better system, that's why we're going that way.... Also, NatAmi60 is NOT the highest level that can be achived, the MHz can still go higher, and we WILL be in their league then, but with smaller OS, smaller productivity SW size, quick responsive feel, etc. etc.


You are just speculating you don't know, and your lack of technical knowledge does not allow you to speculate.

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And just general "fun" factor, it's hard to explain.


No, you confuse "fun" with "familiarity". Modern systems are complex and powerful, far beyond the Amiga... but you would have to put the effort in to learn them.

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Macintoshes are more like an appliance now, a refrigerator or microwave oven.


Computers are ment to be appliances. Very multipurpose appliances, you switch it on and it does it's job. No messing around, no pain, no struggle.

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PCs are incomplete hodge-podges. Never know if it will be reliable, and you can't manipulate things without them just stop working.


XP SP2 has made the situation much better. I admit though, this did cause me problems in my work and thus I moved to MacOSX.

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Linux, hard to fathom, and constantly in revision, trying to keep up with drivers eternally.


I thought you liked "fun"?

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2008, 11:01:20 PM »
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Atheist wrote:
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bloodline wrote:
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Atheist wrote:

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An Amiga 2000 could play MP3 too (with no accelerator card!!!). If there was a 700 MHz 6502, an Apple ][ probably could too!


No it can't. To play an MP3 you need to decode it in realtime, no 68000 could ever do that. My 68040 could do some weird low quality thing... but it was horrible. the 6502 can't scale to 700Mhz, the design doesn't allow it.


An Amiga at only 7.14 MHz could play an MP3 if:

1. It had 256 Megs of ram, and decoded (by that I mean decompresses it) the file into ram: (disk)
2. 256 Megs of ram is not possible ONLY because of the 16/32 bit nature of the 68000 CPU itself, not an AOS issue.
3. It would need 256 Megs of chip ram. Not possible STRICTLY due to the OCS not being able to control more than 512K of ram.
4. AOS can't play MP3, so the file then should have to be converted to a file that OCS could play. Store it in ram: disk, and load into chip ram and play.

Voila!


Playing is not the same as offline decoding.

1. The amount of RAM is irrelevant. An average 3.5min MP3 decoded to a Stereo 8bit 20Khz IFF audio file would only take around 10megs or ram.

2. The 68K address space allows for 4GigaBytes... the 68000 and the 68020 only have 24 address alines which limits them to 16meg addressable.

3. What does OCS have to do with this?

4. Do you know how long it would take for a 7Mhz 68k to decode an MP3 to an 8bit audio file? And given the lack of FPU... I would suggest days... You like to wait several days with your A2000 doing nothing but decoding an MP3 to a crappy 8bit 20Khz sample just before you can play it?

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2008, 11:19:13 PM »
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itix wrote:
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4. Do you know how long it would take for a 7Mhz 68k to decode an MP3 to an 8bit audio file? And given the lack of FPU... I would suggest days... You like to wait several days with your A2000 doing nothing but decoding an MP3 to a crappy 8bit 20Khz sample just before you can play it?


You probably would prefer using fixed point math (FPU on 68k sucks). You can also (probably) tweak decoding algorithm to go faster at loss of quality.


I've used fixed point maths on an A500 to do some hi-speed 3d transformations... it worked really well... but I think the final audio quality would be horrible if were to use fixed point maths with a 16 bit precision.

But even then we are talking many many hours... I'm pretty sure...


-Edit-
I tried to run a test, using my A500 and amp072 from Aminet... but it needs the ixemul library.. and I simply don't have the motivation to set this up... any one else bothered?

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2008, 12:35:30 AM »
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Atheist wrote:
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bloodline wrote:

Playing is not the same as offline decoding.

1. The amount of RAM is irrelevant. An average 3.5min MP3 decoded to a Stereo 8bit 20Khz IFF audio file would only take around 10megs or ram.

2. The 68K address space allows for 4GigaBytes... the 68000 and the 68020 only have 24 address alines which limits them to 16meg addressable.

3. What does OCS have to do with this?

4. Do you know how long it would take for a 7Mhz 68k to decode an MP3 to an 8bit audio file? And given the lack of FPU... I would suggest days... You like to wait several days with your A2000 doing nothing but decoding an MP3 to a crappy 8bit 20Khz sample just before you can play it?

Hi bloodline,

I thought that a file that big would HAVE to be in CHIP ram, and OCS can't control more than 512K.


It requires little CPU time to stream from FastRAM to ChipRAM... and since the Audio file would be between 7 and 10 megs you would have to have it in FastRAM.

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Also, the 68000 can't control more than 16 Megs, and in the case of OCS, max ram is 8.5 Megs. BUT, if there was a 68000 that has 32 bit pins in/out (NOT the 68020 core) and was working at 7.14 MHz it COULD play a converted, ram resident, MP3 file!


This is NOT playing the mp3 file... it is offline decoding it... and it would take forever.

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Are you sure 20 KHz is max playback?


To be honest 20Khz is pushing it with the 68000. The absolute maximum is related to the Screen Refresh DMA... so normally that's about 28Khz... but with the streaming from FastRAM, I would expect to loose quite a bit of bandwidth.

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Pretty good for an obsolete machine, huh?


No, absolutely as one would expect for such old hardware.

Anyway this is an irrelevant discussion. Since this thread is about the OS.




I have attempted to run amp072 on UAE with A500 settings (OS3.1 and ixemul.library 47.3 and the various math libraries) but the program keeps putting out an empty wav file, and will not play the audio at all (not even using the mono and the frequency div by 4 options). In short the 68k cannot do it.

Your theory has been tested, and does not work. -Edit- I can Email you an ADF set up for your own testing if you don't believe me.

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2008, 08:04:02 AM »
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stefcep2 wrote:
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persia wrote:
I'd like to see a move to Intel architecture, it's cheap and plentiful and you could run virtual Macs and PCs on it for productivity.  There need to be a running in period, where an integrated Amiga classic (68k) would need to run to serve as a bridge until x86 software was developed and the 68K software retired.

 


I always thought PPC was a mistake.  Sure there were some performance advantages over x86 at the time, but Amiga went PPC mainly because they wanted to create a closed-hardware design, where AmigaOS4 wouldn't run easily on generic x86 hardware,  This was ofcourse designed to maximize profits for the hardware developers.  It helped that there was a very anti-intel attitude held by most Amigans at the time, meaning they didn't need to be convinced to go PPC.


Actually The PPC made perfect sense in about 1996/97... where is was more powerful than the x86, and produced less heat for a given CPU fabrication process... By 1999, it was on shaky ground... both Motorola and IBM were having problems moving it to better fab processes... and by 2001, the very idea of the PPC was crazy... note that this is about the time when Apple started to maintain an x86 build.

You are correct, the hope of A Inc. with the PPC was to lock devs into a hardware platform, not for any technical advantages... instead it killed the platform dead.

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2008, 10:24:28 AM »
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uncharted wrote:
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bloodline wrote:

and by 2001, the very idea of the PPC was crazy... note that this is about the time when Apple started to maintain an x86 build.


I think I should add that unlike AmigaOS, OS X has always been designed as platform neutral.  NeXTSTEP/OpenSTEP were 68k and x86 before they were PPC, and Darwin has always been available for x86 too.  

What really happened around 2001 (although there has been speculation that actually, this is not really the case) is that someone was actively pulling these parts together and tidying up.  The actual groundwork, the real work, was already done because the NeXT engineers were sensible, forward-thinking guys (if only that were true elsewhere in the industry)


Well... that's what I said... am I having difficulty expressing myself today?

Is was around 2001 where Apple Engineers started to maintain an x86 build... that doesn't mean that Darwin didn't already exist on the x86... but it does mean that the x86 source tree is kept in sync with the PPC version.

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Also note, that unlike Windows, as time has gone on, OS X has become less and less compatible, dropping legacy stuff as it has gone on. With quite a lot of success.  There is even speculation that Snow Leopard will drop PPC compatibility, as part of it's drive to be mean and lean.  This simply doesn't happen elsewhere.  For example, the system I'm currently employed to replace, was originally a Windows 3.1 app.


I expect Snow Leopard will drop PPC support, it's nothing more than a streamlined version of Leopard... if you need to run Leopard on a PPC.. well then run Leopard :-)

I expect Leopard to be the last of the PPC OSs from Apple... the next one OS X 10.7 "Mange Ridden Tabby", will be x86 only...

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So to bring this back on topic, AmigaOS was never designed to be independent of the hardware, in particular the CPU and doing that kind of work will take a massive effort.  Secondly, to really move a platform to different hardware there has to be sacrifices made to legacy compatibility to really produce anything worthwhile.  This just could never properly happen on the Amiga. 99% of the software out there will never be replaced.


All very true...

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2008, 10:39:06 AM »
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uncharted wrote:
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bloodline wrote:

Well... that's what I said... am I having difficulty expressing myself today?

Is was around 2001 where Apple Engineers started to maintain an x86 build... that doesn't mean that Darwin didn't already exist on the x86... but it does mean that the x86 source tree is kept in sync with the PPC version.


Don't stress mate, I was elaborating on the situation, not disagreeing with you. :-)  


Deep breaths... they are not out to get me...

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OS X is more than Darwin (or BSD with a pretty windows manager as some around here like to call it), and the point I was trying to elaborate was that a large chunk of other stuff was already x86 as well and that it wasn't a huge upheaval to maintain.  

There is some indication that the whole "started in 2001" thing is bowl-locks anyway, and that there has always been an x86 build.


Makes for a nice story though... and Apple is good at selling stories!

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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2008, 09:15:50 PM »
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codenetfx wrote:
Apple's revival is based on Stevie's Return (to the Dragon's Nest) and purchase of NEXT. NEXT OS was a decade ahead of its time when it came out (around the same time when Amiga started making waves). Does this sound familiar? It was based on, gasp, 68K architecture but designed in a platform-independent way because it grew out of FreeBSD (Mach). Stevie was taking advantage of open source before anyone else knew what it meant *and* he was keeping the OS portable. Portability and clean design (software and hardware) are at the heart of Apple's philosophy. I am by no means a hard-core Apple fan, but I have learned a lot from them :) and their products.


Steve just did with NeXT as he has always done... He has a possibly unique ability to see which bit of the latest technology is actually useful for peoples lives... picked up the latest tech and put together a great system...

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As of OS 4 (and 4.1 if it is really in the works), I tend to ignore it because it does not offer any tangible advantage over OS 3.9. PPC is a dead platform and I do not intend to throw a lot of money after an obsolete Blizzard/Cyberstorm card. Instead, I will just buy another Macbook Pro because I can actually *use* it. Amiga in its present situation, let's face it, is merely a curiosity from the 68K era. With a lot of games :) Productivity applications seem very dated. Platform is largely without support from a major corporate entity. This is why it is so puzzling to me that AROS did not take stronger hold. But, not all things Amiga make sense all the time :)


The answer to this is twofold...

1. You don't have to justify AROS... With your Expensive custom PPC board and expensive ported OS... you've shelled out a lot of cash... after that there is no way you can admit your are wrong about your choice. With AROS, no such emotional investment is required.

2. The flaws in the idea of  AmigaOS making a return show up more clearly with AROS than on a PPC... Firstly it becomes clear how little NG software is actually available and in fact likely to appear...  You realize that the only thing you really need the Amiga for is old games (which need the Hardware not the OS... and thus UAE is better) and one or two old 68k apps... which run brilliantly in UAE for free... Secondly, limitations in AmigaOS design show up... why bother running a single user, no memory protection, non posix OS when you can run a modern OS for free...


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The biggest issue with Amiga may not be the hardware but software. Without a software market, there are no new applications and no need for new hardware. It is a vicious circle, a catch-22 in a Devil's Kitchen (in einer Teufelskueche - this is just for bloodline :)


Vielen Dank.

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If German (electrical) engineering could not save Amiga hardware platform, who can? German industrial design saved Apple because it provided a template for the "new" Mac look (of which I have "Braun's" originals laying around in my home). But they are not easy to "copy".

Did anyone manage to copy the BMW ("beemer")? How about a Porsche? PPC Blizzard/Cyberstorm cards? You get my point :)

And we know that Stevie even enjoys German-made washing machines because they have such a cool user interface.



Well, Jonathan Ive... is really rather English... but yeah, he has a "Germanisch" eye for form and lines :-)


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Re: AmigaOS 4.0 for 68k: a viable option forward?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2008, 10:14:17 PM »
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codenetfx wrote:
@ bloodline

Jonathan Ive was looking at products designed by Braun (German company, makes appliances) back in the 60s and early 70s. Virtually ALL Apple's designs (casing) for G3/G4/G5 iMacs, iPod are not just inspired but almost straight copies of Braun's timeless design. If you google "apple design braun" or "apple design bauhaus" I am sure you will find a lot of interesting articles. Braun has drawn its inspiration from Bauhaus - THE school of industrial design from all the way back in the 1930s. It is said that even legendary Dr. Dipl. Ing Ferdinand Porsche has "stolen" some curves from Bauhaus. He did however improve on it by punching holes in the metal, to reduce weight without sacrificing structural strength of the design. Many of these sources and articles are available in out-of-print books and in German only.

Apple's G5 desktops feature "punctured metal", first featured on early Braun/Grundig/Telefunken AMFM radio receivers. Does anyone even remember Grundig and Telefunken?

Form und Funktion - das Grundprinzip der Bauhaus-Designschule. In Chicago, everywhere you look you can see great examples of same influences applied to architecture, particularly in designs by Frank Lloyd Wright. Not to mention stunning Art Deco designs :)


Trust me, you are preaching to the choir here :lol: