Intel Mac comes very poor second to PPC

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uncharted wrote:

Tomas wrote:
OSX dosent even run smoothly on systems with 512meg ram...

Complete and utter unadulterated bollocks.

Typing this on an old eMac 700MHz G4 with only 256MB, and it's running absolutely fine with 6 apps open.  I'm not having any performance issues.

Good point, my PowerBook G4 ran fine on 512Mb, I certainly didn't notice any performacny difference when I upgraded to 1.2Gig (which was to allow me to do more in Logic 7).

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mdma wrote:

but it won't perform so well in 3D games.

Of which the Mac market is saturated with eh Matt? ;-)

:-P

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Hyperspeed wrote:
What do you mean by Application/Document based?

It relates to how one deals with data on the system. In a document centric system one doesn't really care about the application used to manipulate the data. You think of the Data as an entity in it's own right, which is essentially self contained. In an application centric, it's the application which you use and the data is sort of "hidden" from user view.

Okay, so MacOSX does sound interesting but if it eats more resources than WinXP then isn't this cheating?

... being more like Amiga by being more like Windows!?

I must admit that the statement about Mac programmers knowing what they were coding for is similar to Amiga. And I do like the way a Macintosh has a recognisable, quality case design.

Yes.

It puzzles me though why in this day and age we use earplugs (on the iPod for example) but not eyeplugs.

Try walking around the streets with wearing plugs... then try the same wearing a blindfold... Vision is your primary sense.

Someone got MacOSX screenshot links?

:-)

Apple's MacOS X page is a good place to start:

http://www.apple.com/macosx/

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Waccoon wrote:

Uncharted:  Typing this on an old eMac 700MHz G4 with only 256MB, and it's running absolutely fine with 6 apps open. I'm not having any performance issues.

It's possible OSX scales back automatically for older Macs.  My mini was a performance slug before I put in more memory, even for simple things like e-mail.  I had to wait minutes for the OS9 version of Graphing Calculator to start!  I hear, though, that 10.4 is much, much more resource hungry than 10.3.  My mini came with 10.4.

That explains it!! Yeah if you run classic programs in MacOS X, you have to wait for OS9 to boot up and then run inside an OSX task... No wonder it worked better when you put more ram in it... you were running two OSes at the same time.

I won't touch MacOS Classic... I've never liked it, and I still don't, it was crap from day one. Killing it was the Best thing apple ever did!

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Kathyone wrote:
PPC design is inherently superior to INTEL.

That sentense makes as much sense as saying: The French language is inherently superior to Tampax.

At the same clock speed it will annhilate the intel chip.
IBM developed it.

"The Intel Chip"... intel only make one chip? Ahhh, yes the 4004... :roll:

Motorola has done a lot with low power design. Go to freescale.com.

By alot, you mean nothing for the past six years...

The xbox 360 is a 970 or g5 core based design. With 3 cores.
Enuff said.

The xenon cpu (i.e. the chip in the xbox 360), is nothing of the sort. It uses three in order PPC compatible cores, not related to the 970 other than being built by IBM.

You clearly have no understanding of CPU design, I suggest you read up on the subject or stop posting.

I notice you don't plan to upgrade your Mac... never mind, you were probably one of those people who was happy with their A500 and saw no reason to get any of the newer amigas...

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Kathyone wrote:
Mac osx is just freebsd unix with a few add ons and a pretty face.

No it's not. It's Mach 3.0 with a few BSD/Carbon/Cocoa add ons and a pretty face.

It doesn't scale back for anything. They just used carbon library to run old apps which is integrated into bsd free unix. Even the new apps depend on carbon to some degree.

MacOS X presents the developer with Mach,BSD,Carbon and Cocoa interfaces, the developer uses the parts of each interface best suited to the task he/she has in mind.

I haven't looked at Tiger internals.

You can't, everything above Darwin is close source.

I am a developer for mac os x. I used to develop for amiga os.

I don't believe you.

I run osx 10.3.9 and will upgrade soon. Don't want no intel processor, though.  

Are you afraid of better performance, lower power use, more advanced manufacturing processes, greater supply and clear achievable road maps?

Apple gave up on the rhapsody project.
They couldn't get the os right. They used next step code to build os x. Remember NEXT os?

MacOS X is NeXT Step (The NEXT operating system). Rhapsody was the code name for a poject to port NeXT Step to the PPC, and to add a new user interface to it (+the Blue Box... ie classic environment). The fruit of this project was shipped as MacOS X Server... later the Carbon API was added and it was shipped as MacOS X 10.0.

Jobs is a genius, but osx is too monolithic just like linux.

Jobs takes great risks, has clear bold vision and is a very good sales man... but probably not a genius.

Explain the monolithic nature of MacOS X then. Also in what was does MacOS X have anything to do with Linux?

It doesn't scale well.
OS4 and other Microkernal based preemptive multitasking cores like qnx are superior.

Microkernels? MacOSX is built on one of the first ever microkernels... Mach!!!!

It is posix or unix compliant and similar, but much much smaller and faster.

You have no idea what you say...

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Ok, I accidentally bought 2.0Ghz MacBook Pro... It's pretty good. :-D

I haven't anything add to what I spoke about from the one I played with in the Apple Store.

But I'm happy to answer any questions anyone has!

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uncharted wrote:
What's it like fan/noise wise?  

No fan noise. The DC-DC board makes a highpitch noise when the machine is totally idle, this problem is well documented, and can be resolved by simply putting it under a larger load. For example: Turing the iSight on, plugging a USB device in or simply running a program.

Much different to the PPC PB?

Feels exactly like my PowerBook... bit more solid feeling, like the 17inch... the old 15inch felt a bit more delicate, though it was actually built like a tank :-)

MUCH faster than any Powerbook... since I am also able to run MacOS X on my 2.0Ghz Athlon64, I have compared them. The Macbook is about 50% faster in most tasks and more responsive... some tasks (effects and synth plug in in Logic Pro) it is twice as fast!... but then it does have 2 cpu cores. :-D

What's the battery life like on it?

I've not tried to run it on batteries yet... stay tuned! -Edit- After pulling the plug, The machine estimates 4 hours 38 min... that seems reasonable... I'll perform a more in depth test over the next few days. -Edit2- Watched a DVD and did some surfing, got just over 4hours... battry life is about the same as a PowerBook.

But the bottom get REALLY hot (measured with a thermometer, it's only 3 degrees hotter than my powerbook, feels hotter)... nice on cold winter days, less so during the summer.

I've not run any PPC apps yet either... -Edit- Ran a few PPC apps, run about the same speed as on my 1.5Ghz Powerbook.

It's also very light... as in, not heavy in any way!

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bloodline wrote:

uncharted wrote:
What's it like fan/noise wise?  

No fan noise. The DC-DC board makes a highpitch noise when the machine is totally idle, this problem is well documented, and can be resolved by simply putting it under a larger load. For example: Turing the iSight on, plugging a USB device in or simply running a program.

I have discovered a more elegant solution to this problem! Since the noise is only present when using the laptop in low power situations, it's simple enough to switch off one of the CPU cores and the noise is gone (uses less power too, so a bonus all round... Hopefull Apple will release an OS update to do this automagically).

-Edit- It should be noted that the noise isn't present when running WinXP on the machine... so it looks like an OS update should fix the problem :-)

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Tripitaka wrote:

Damn I'm  :pissed:  :pissed:  :pissed: ,Talk about assumption, all I said in my post is that I would not go and buy an Intel box just to run a Mac OS when I own an AMD, I did not say I was "ANTI-INTEL". I have owned several Intel machines and still do, I just don't have anything Intel based available for playing with Mac-OS with enough power. I buy AMD now as they give me the most cost effective solutions to my needs. So let me put this simple like:
I will not go out and buy an Intel based Mac because it's Intel based, I would try the OS out of interest BUT AS IT IS NOT ON AN AMD I CANNOT.    ...f.c.o.l. :madashell:

MacOS X runs fine on Athlon CPU's (as long as they have at least SSE2)... It's great :-)

Apple will never make the mistake of locking themselves into one CPU vendor again... both Motorola and IBM nearly killed them twice!

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The battery on the MacBook charges much faster than on the Powerbook... interesting... maybe something to do with the larger PSU and the new Li-Poly battery technology :-?

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I think Apple need to sort out their batty life calculator... It's much too sensitive,  although I managed to get about 4hours on the MacBook's battery, the indicator would wildly swing from 2:14 to 3:38... depending upon what I was doing... it would then proceed to stay at one of the above values for a considerable period.

A new noise has emerged, a strange, distant and very haunting sound... it's clearly a fan starting up and then powering down. This sound is very subtle and oddly reassuring. Some describe it as a quiet "moo", quite a nice description :-)

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I was so busy looking for problems, forgot to mention the Screen on the MacBook is FANTASIC!!! It's brighter than my desktop LCD! The quality is great.

The Magsafe is brilliant.

The isight works fine... but I've yet to find anyone else with an iSight to chat with :-(

The speakers are loud and clear, with above average frequency response.

The Keyboard lighting is a wonder to behold and the keys have a lovely (adjustable brightness) blue-white glow.

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uncharted wrote:
Thanks for the info Agafaster.

Matt, have you had chance to play with  FrontRow yet?  It seemed a bit gimmicky to me.

Yup, before I bought the machine I made a concious decision to never use FrontRow and its stupid little remote... so far I've found it brilliant, I can pop the macbook on any available surface and with a simple click of the remote It becomes a Movie/Song jukebox and DVD player... not found much use for the picture viewer though. Never though I would say this, but I rather like my new entertainment centre ;-)

What kind of res pics does the iSight take?

The resolution of the iSight is a rather lame 640*480, with the obvious quality issues assoiciated with the tiny (Hi-Res ;-) ) resolution. But the CCD sensor is rather good by VGA standards and doesn't introduce too much noise into the picture/movie.

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Ocriss wrote:
All,

I can't help but wonder if Apple pays reviewers.  I mean all of their products seem to get glowing reviews and I don't understand why.  Maybe it is just me.

I think it must be to do with the way Apple address human issues rather than technical ones.

The screen on the Macbook Pro is average.  Sony, HP, and Toshiba laptops all have better screens.  The screens on Apple notebooks are always about one generation behind the PC laptops.  

I guess it's a matter of taste, but the screens on both my PowerBook and my MacBook are much better than The Sony and Toshiba laptops I also use... the Sony one has some kind of glossy/reflective coating that make it imposible to use in a normal environment. The Toshiba is a higher resolution than the apple, but much dimmer.

Has anyone sued Apple for being burned by the bottom of the laptop?  The bottom of the laptop is very hot.  I cannot believe that management let the product ship this way.  I would think it would open them up to a potential lawsuit.  In any event it is way too hot.  

Yeah, they get hot! But, if that is the price to pay for a metal laptop without any bloody cooling vents on the bottom (stupid place to put fans!!) then so be it!

Those are two things I observed from messing with the thing for 5 minutes in the Apple store.  How can these reviewers not be making major issues of these things when they have units to use for days before a review?

The reviews seemed pretty good to me... I have tried to be honest (and as impartial as possible) in my descriptions of the MacBook I have here.

The iPod is another big mystery to me.  There are much better players out there.  I bought one for my wife and was so ticked off.  It looks like new and is dead 1 year and 1 month after purchase.  I had to replace the screen on it myself once as well.  The design is horrible.

I agree the older iPods were pretty lame... but the iPod nano is perfect for my needs.

There was a quote from Bill Gates saying that there are much better MP3 players on the market.  I laughed because I always figure Bill is telling a story.  This was one time he wasn't telling a tall tale.  Bought the wife a Creative Nano to replace her iPod.  She love it and so do I.  Putting songs on it is so much easier.  I don't have to mess with iTunes at all.

I rather like the iRiver mp3 players (they have loads of great features), but once you get to try them all, you soon get bored of them and realise you want one that just works and has a nice simple interface... enter the iPod.

I will never forget the nightmare I had with a Sony mp3 player...

 I can just drag and drop songs to it like a memory stick.  It has an FM tuner on it so I didn't have to pay money for an add on like I did on the iPod.

Radio? What's that?

I just don't get it.  Is the Apple marketing department really that good?

Regards,
Ocriss

As I said earlier, I think apple have (since Jobs got back involved in '97) made a large effort to design devices that will appeal to "people" rather than to technophile (who want (x*y)^3 features, rather than elegant design). This is quite a good gimmick/strategy when trying to survive in the faceless technological market... if only Amiga Inc. had figured it out...

Apple also made a great decision by buying Emagic's "Logic Audio" and canceling the Windows version... thus any musician who wants to make quality music now has to by a Mac :-)

Also Apple are the only laptop maker to put a REAL FULL 6Wire Firewire port on their machines... As I use bus powered Firewire Music hardware, I need that very feature...

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I've just spent the day working on this MacBook, using Logic Pro 7.2... all I can say is.. WOW! This is the most powerfull notebook computer I've ever used... it pisses on the 2.0Ghz dual Processor G5 tower PowerMac we were using at the studio... Which simply can't handle the amount of processing that this thing can take! I can now work on a song in real time, without having to bounce/freeze the complex tracks!

I can't wait to see what the new MacDesktop machines will be like!