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Author Topic: PPC is bad bad bad  (Read 67435 times)

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« on: May 03, 2002, 08:23:43 PM »
This is a cut and paste of a post I made on another topic, but it is strangely relavent:

Motorola have been planning to "kill" the PPC series for a while now (by Kill I mean give over exclusive rights to Apple). It's been no secret in the industry. It was, IMHO, a very unwise decision to choose the PPC simply for this reason.

Compared to AMD, for example, Motorola will always be a few steps behind, they don't have market forces on their side. ARM have stolen the embeded market and the x86 has stolen the desktop market.
It doesn't matter if a PPC is more powerful, at the same clock speed, than an x86. AMD and Intel can always make their chips run faster and can produce them inquantity. The x86 gets constant revision throughout it's life cycle (pushing performance up daily), the PPC only gets an upgrade once every 6 months or so.
It is important to remember that when a company like AMD release a chip, they keep redesiging it!! if you buy an Athlon one month and then you buy another one a few months down the line, you get a quite different chip with new technology!
This can be seen in the Intel P4, the first chips sucked ass, but now they have seen where improvemnts need to be made and implemented them to make the chip better (the P4 still sucks though :-) ). Motorola simple don't have a big enough market to keep this sort of constant development going. The x86 chips get faster because of newer technology, not because someone puts a faster crystal on. The 600Mhz Athlon and the 1.8Ghz Athlon run at the same themperature!!!! Run a G4 700Mhz at
1Ghz and you need some serious cooling upgrade.

IBM do make a PPC series of chip, but it is really expensive for the performance, and IMHO it is not really suited to the desktop. The IBM engineers have been pushing great speeds out of these chips but they have not been able to produce them in any significant quantity.

I think it is important to remember that Amiga Corp. and apple chose the 68k because it was the fastest thing around for the price. I think Amiga Inc. should remember that.

It would have been great if Motorola had continued the 68K, like Intel did with the x86. By now the two chips would have been almost indentical anyway!!!* But Motorola didn't have a big enough market to do that and teamed up with IBM etc to make the PowerPC chips instead, which in theory would have allowed for a bigger market and allowed them to jump over the x86 emulation stage. But the PPC did not take off, maybe a more powerful 68k would have done? Isn't hindsight great  

Apple are very lucky, they have their own CPU which they can control, but they are never going to be able to beat the x86 chips with the PPC, IMHO!

*I have spent a long time thinking about the evolution of the 68k, Motorola would have added a simd unit (maybe even Altivec?). Then they would have continued with the 060 RISC core and, then culled more of the less usefull instuctions and then added a few newer instructions (conditional moves etc...) to allow better branch prediction. Then the bus interface would have been changed to allow better cache and multiprocessor support. The RISC core would have grown lots of registers, to allow register renaming and out of order execution. The chip would be fully super scalar and super pipelined. As you can see, now the intenals of the chip would look just like an Athlon, but with the external instruction set based on the 68K and not the x86, and it would be big endien.

We all hate the x86 legacy, but it's time to face facts, the modern x86 is actually a great lump of silicon and very cheap to buy. Once real mode is switched off, the chip is great. The only thing bad is that motherboard manufactures still insist on using the IBM-PC BIOS!?!?!? I've been working on putting an AROS kernel in place of the BIOS so that a standard PC mobo would boot directly into intuition in 3 seconds (no more black and white text based BIOS screen), it's fun but I lack the technical knowledge about PC Chipsets to progress at any speed. But it really looks good to see!

Ok, my rant is over... you can get back to eating your lunch now

Remember that internally, a 600Mhz PPC and a 600Mhz Athlon don't look very different!!! Simply becuase to run a chip at such speeds, there is only one way to do it. I will grant  you that the die size of the Athlon is bit bigger, but the Athlon is also a lot cheaper so that doesn't matter in the slightest!!!!

Oh, and to say that the modern x86 (eg Athlon) is unoptimised and inefficient is blatent FUD!!! I suggest you get yourself a good book on cpu design, and read it.
I already stated that the worst thing about the x86 is the archaic "IBM-PC BIOS" (which no OS other than MSDOS and Windoze9x uses anyway...), but that is flashable!!!! I've been looking at the OpenBIOS and LinuxBIOS projects as to how AROS can replace the BIOS. It's hard but not impossible, and great to see.

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2002, 02:18:19 AM »
Every one here agree that comparing CPU's using performance at a certain clock  speed is stupid.
You can compare them, and the results are meaningless.

So I think we should compare them Performance per $ (£ or €).

Ok, now which CPU has the best ratio?

It's a sad truth that I have to chose whatever CPU gets the job done fastest for the least amount of money.

And my closing point: It doesn't matter which CPU you use anymore, they are all pretty much identical. Gone are the days when one CPU was better than another, all we have now are CPU optimised for different tasks.
When deciding which CPU to use all you do is select your application (in our case the desktop workstation) and then choose the fastest CPU for the least amount of money.

Oh and before you PPC lot start saying that the PPC is easier to program than the x86, I have one thing to say. They both suck when compared to programming the 68K, from a human (my) point of view. But no one goes near ASM for most programming projects in the modern world so it doesn't matter!!! The C compiler doesn't care. I would also like to poin out that the x86 is MORE efficient when it comes to memory usage as x86 instructions are smaller than PPC ones and the x86 needs less of them to do a perticualr task.

Nice page explaining the G4 and the P4:
http://arstechnica.com/cpu/01q4/p4andg4e2/p4andg4e2-1.html

Better page comparing the Athlon and the G4:
http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/1q00/g4vsk7/g4vsk7-1.html

If you read these pages you will see that the P4 and the Athlon are two different appraches to the same problem, and the the Athlon and the G4 turn out to be so similar it hurts. The only difference is that the Athlon is sigificantly cheaper.

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2002, 02:37:29 AM »
Quote

Something you may not realize is that Amiga Inc nor the AmigaOS can possibly compete on the x86 platform at this moment in time.  Remember [color=000099]B[/color][color=FF0000]e[/color]?  The only reason [color=000099]B[/color][color=FF0000]e[/color] bothered with x86 is not because they saw the x86 as a great opportunity to provide a cheap hardware platform for their users.  


Be did not have a loyal fan base. It had no user base, it had no software base. It was a great OS, but it tried to move in on M$ market with a better system. It had no chance, until they started to give it way.

Quote

No, it was because Apple pulled out of the clone market and there was no open PPC platform to fall back on.

Now, eventually the AmigaOS will appear on the x86 platform.  But this is contingent on there being other platforms around to fall back on.  After all, if like [color=000099]B[/color][color=FF0000]e[/color], Amiga fails to penetrate the x86 platform they'll need to have somewhere else to go or die.  M$ is still too dominate in the x86 market and no amount of wishful thinking will change that in the for seeable future.  Especially if the courts (in particular the US courts) continue to give M$ slaps on the wrist.

Now whether you think such a platform should be based on some other processor than PPC (or x86) is a different story.  Whether you think PPC is total crap or has a sketchy future, or whatever.  But x86 right now would be suicide.


Why would an x86 Amiga be competing against M$ when a PPC based one isn't?
You don't buy a computer plug it in and only then find out what CPU you've just bought!

An x86 Amiga would simply be cheaper than a PPC one at the same specfication. Nothing more nothing less. They would both use the same GFX and sound hardware... just a different processor.

I simply don't understand why so many on this forum seem to think that by using a PPC they magicaly no longer compete with M$, but if they use an x86 Amiga, evil Micros0ft would come along and automatically install windoze on it!!!!

I could see a lot of Linux users getting excited about the idea of a custom Athlon motherboard which couldn't run windoze. In fact if you follow the LinuxBIOS project you will find that it is not hard to do!! Once the IBM-PC BIOS is removed (or simply switched off as Linux and AROS do) the x86 is a great platform.

x86 Amiga = Cheaper, better spec!!!
PPC Amiga = Expensive, lower spec, little support (with uncertain future).

 :-o

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2002, 02:51:58 AM »
I've just found the definitive page for anyone want to know exactly how bad the modern x86 is!!!!

Click Here

This information is something we should all read!!!

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Re: PPC is bad bad bad
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2002, 02:59:02 AM »
Quote

jumpship wrote:
All I want (as a consumer) is a computer that will allow me to do some word prosessing, few spreadsheets, surf the net, and maybe watch a few DVDs, oh an play a few games. I don't need (as most people in the world don't) a 2GHz+ machine.

The other thing I want is a computer that doesn't sound as if it is about to take off by pumping more air through it then a jumbo jets engine.

When Intel/AMD can make me a CPU that doesn't need all that cooling (even at 600MHz an Intel/AMD CPU needs active cooling), I will be happy to buy another of thier products. Hopefully AmigaONE will take off with OS4.0 enough that some people will start to produce/port software and I will be happy. If it falls flat on its face then I will take a long hard look at an Apple. Don't get me wrong, the x86's are good CPUs, but in a home enviroment you don't need something in the corner making enough noise to rivial your vacum cleaner.


Ok, I take your point on that. But if you want maximum performance you need maximum cooling.

But the Mobile Duron can run without a fan, and it's pin for pin compatible with the Athlon...
The excelent Crusoe is really cold especialy for the performance. A Crusoe based Amiga would have been really brilliant!!!