VERY RARE - FA or Buy It Now - Ralph Babel's "The Amiga Guru Book"!!!

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FA or Buy It Now


Very Rare!

Ralph Babel's

"The Amiga Guru Book A Reference Manual"

736 pgs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301010814417

thanks for your interest.

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If you're serious about programming for the Amiga, and want a serious reference you must have this book.

I have no doubt there are many who've never seen this book (it is self published and very rare) who assume it's just 'another' Amiga reference.

Sure, you can probably find some really bad scan of this online somewhere which is why Ralph will never publish a 2nd edition (which he had been planning until he found a terrible scanned version on some torrent)....but if you're serious, that isn't going to help you much.  You can't search it, and you can't flip back and forth to find anything in any way that won't have you hating the process until you give up.

Seriously, if you need a real reference, you need this book, and anyone who knows anything about it would tell you that.

The book originally sold for about $60, and routinely still sells for $120-220.  That should tell you something about its rarity, and its substance.

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You don't need an expensive book to do serious Amiga programming. The whole notion seems absurd.


Nothing beats a properly scanned version that's searchable. Much preferable to a paper version which can't be searched. Major back draw of books, IMHO.

No, you don't NEED a reference to program, but it sure helps if you want to get into the guts of things!

A searchable scanned version beats a paper version? To each their own.

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The fact you reference Ralph's first edition online, is why he never released a second edition.  This is what happens when "copyright material is copied."  Why work away on a manuscript for free, or why develops new software?  Just abandon the platform and get a job you get paid for.  One can't feed their family on the results of hard work that is stolen from them.

Agreed! ...and as much a reason not to scan and post really well done, self published work like this as any!

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@ dan

Not to sound snide (but we all should focus on what we are good at).

So, this is a property rights issue and we are costing this guy money because this was going to be a perennial best seller?

Maybe its the '60s anarchist in me, but for some reason your argument makes me think of Abbie Hoffman's book "Steal This Book".

F'k it.
Freedom of information.

Dude!  This is an important book in Amiga programming circles.
Ralph self published it.  He didn't make a fortune.  No publishing company made anything.
Ralph had publicly talked about a 2nd edition revision as late as 7-8 years ago, but as soon as the scans showed up, it made it easy for him to decide not to bother since he had no reason to believe it wouldn't immediately be scanned too.

Wouldn't it be great if all information were free, sure, but someone has to know enough to put something of substance together, and their time and expertise should be worth enough to make it worth their while.

It's fine for Abbie Hoffman to tell people to steal HIS book, to inflict financial loss on a publishing corporation as a statement that's consistent with his political goals.

When someone is self publishing and supporting a niche platform that needs all the help it can get, it might be nice if others using that platform supported the effort by not pirating his book.  It's the same as pirating software.  If you want to the Amiga to die, keep encouraging piracy.

It makes me tired when some encourage piracy as a political statement about freedom when one of the main impacts of that action is destroying the community they claim to be part of.

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fyi, after a 1 1/2 days of a 3 day listing,
this listing has 255 views and 12 watching.

The 255 views shows a better than average level of interest for most Amiga related items.

Some of those watching may be checking to see what it brings because they have one they might sell, but some are also likely interested in buying a 20 yr old book of actual paper!
Imagine that!

That should tell you something.

(No matter how many encourage piracy and copyright infringement and don't care about the platform, there will always be those who've put time in and made things worth having.  It's sad that the Amiga platform suffered not only from poor management & promotion, but more than its share in a niche community who thought it okay to not only crack & scan, but post and remove any potential for authors and developers to benefit from their efforts.  These people helped to drive the best from adding more value to the Amiga.)

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I don't know you...I'm in a different camp when it comes to a second hand sale.

IF you bought this book at retail for $60, sell it for that and Ralph gets no money.

Sell it at your starting bid and double your money 60 back plus 60 = 120...
and Ralph still gets no money.

IF someone pays you buy now of $200...GREAT for you, Ralph still gets no money.

IF you really want to show us something. Promise at the least 50% to Ralph.

Just MHO,
M

So you expect those who've collected and maintained hardware since the eighties or nineties to sell their stuff for what they paid for it?

So you expect those who have worthwhile software with registration keys and any documentation to pass it along for what they paid for it?

Yes, this is a book.  The author made what he could, and I'm not currently in touch with him.  I have, like many, contacted him in the past to encourage a new edition, but found him to be less than receptive to any new edition or the old edition.

As a book, it is both an informational resource, and a hard asset.

I paid more than cover price when I acquired this second hand.  The reason this book has a higher than cover price is both because the content is substantial, AND because as time has passed the book is more rare as copies have gone to recycle or trash or were otherwise lost or destroyed.  As with anything of this kind, some few are saved and cared for by some few who know their worth.

I have no need to "show you something" or to show anyone anything.

I'm giving you the same chance I had at acquiring something of value, and the price will be determined by who values it the most.

...and I have no interest in letting it go to someone who sees it as something to use forced logic to get it for a minimal price.  It's not a collectible or something to sit on a shelf as a prize someone managed to get by promoting some socialized benefit that really amounts to a personal benefit.

I'm hopeful it will go to someone who values it, will care for it, and may eventually either never let it go or pass it along for whatever reasonable value it has at that time to another who values it.  ..and by value, I mean will put their money up to prove their interest and valuation.

As for Ralph, I've owned 2 copies of this book over the years, this being the second and last one I've had.  At some point, Ralph got the percentage of each that he had calculated based on his original printing.  Do I owe him something now? I owe him precisely what he stipulated in publishing a copyright book... that I won't copy it and reduce his ability to sell or revise it for his benefit.  I have no intention of infringing on his copyright.

If any of those whining for lower prices on valuable older Amiga items really want something, perhaps standing against piracy and infringement and actually valuing things enough to give something for them when they want them would result in a dynamic Amiga market with lots of users again and that volume would lower all prices.

I won't hold my breath.

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Fill yer boots pirates!

How much is your time worth?
How much is your education worth?

If you develop, and acquire your references through any means other than paying for them, or being given them by those who have paid for them, or by those who've published them and chosen to make them freely available for their own reasons, what expectation can you have anyone will value your work, your time or your effort?

If your preference is to use a physical book,  how much is it worth to you to find one, and acquire it?  

If someone else keeps something in fair shape, and makes it available to you when the item is scarce, is that worth something?

It's 2013 and the there's almost no one making anything for the Amiga community.
Why is that?  Because those that have been abused, and, with dwindling active numbers of
users the few who are left are increasingly newbies, and those looking for freebies.

What this tells me is:
- there is likely to be some quality stuff available to those really interested & willing to pay for it.
- and those of us who really used Amigas in the mid eighties and those who have hardware and software shouldn't bother having discussions concerning piracy, and infringement with those who's motives seem more likely simply a casual personal amusement, with no real interest in any sort of vibrant, active community that produces new stuff.

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All property is theft.

..and those who say such things and offer no workable, pragmatic alternative are wasting everyone's time and making sure nothing gets done.

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read the author's own response to what's happened to his original work at:

http://babel.de/amiga.html#doc

Without incentive, nothing happens and no one needs to own anything because there's nothing worth anything.

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..and you selling a second hand copy of Ralph's work benefits who exactly?

Considering how much has been said above I would have thought that was made clear already, but I will summarize:

- selling good quality used/2nd hand goods of any sort demonstrates their continued value to those unfamiliar with them
- provides the initial purchasers with some recovery of their investment, and in the case of 3rd or 4th hand buyers, recovery of their investment and perhaps some benefit for their maintenance of and care of increasingly rare items. (this includes me)  Without this, many things would become impossible to find much quicker.
- provides the developer community with some indication of what subjects are of interest to the community, and where they might put new effort if they're interested in producing something within that community.

There are additional and tangential benefits to an active used marketplace including encouraging an active primary developer community and market.

Yes, there are plenty of examples of the corrosive ways capitalism can manifest itself, but those are not typically obvious, or relevant to the open secondary market.  ..and not a relevant pretense for proposing socialism or open access to everything without any pragmatic description of how that would work or support the community.

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..and me posting links to free copies of Amiga programming reference manuals benefits the wider community tenfold.

Here we disagree.

Posting such links further demonstrates to authors including Ralph, that there are plenty who will promote and use digital versions that infringe on their copyright so there is no incentive for them to revise or author new works of value.

If there were a new, updated edition of such volumes I guarantee the market for the first edition would evaporate immediately, but not when there would likely also be a scanned digital version online of the new edition!

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100% of the books I posted links to are now out of print.

If you want people to learn how to code for Amigas there is no better way than to give them free documentation.

I could sell my RKRM's, Guru Book and various other Amiga coding books but the main benificary of those sales would be me; certainly not the wider community nor the original authors.

..and when you "give away" your own personal copies when you're done with them, especially if the works is 'out of print', and you would benefit the community, and the person you gave them to would likely appreciate them as they were not easy to come by.

..but when you encourage free access to infringed digital copies, you make certain no one will ever do a reprint, and inhibit the necessity for a new edition.

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So you expect those who've collected and maintained hardware since the eighties or nineties to sell their stuff for what they paid for it?

M- Yes, I would hope so.

So you expect those who have worthwhile software with registration keys and any documentation to pass it along for what they paid for it?

M- Yes, as I would.

I have no need to "show you something" or to show anyone anything.

M- Yes, You're quite right.


As for Ralph, I've owned 2 copies of this book over the years, this being the second and last one I've had.  At some point, Ralph got the percentage of each that he had calculated based on his original printing.  Do I owe him something now? I owe him precisely what he stipulated in publishing a copyright book... that I won't copy it and reduce his ability to sell or revise it for his benefit.  I have no intention of infringing on his copyright.

M- Very correct!

If any of those whining for lower prices on valuable older Amiga items really want something, perhaps standing against piracy and infringement and actually valuing things enough to give something for them when they want them would result in a dynamic Amiga market with lots of users again and that volume would lower all prices.

You're mistaken, I not whining.
I have a different view from you as to pricing.

Remember, it's people like me that allow you to "buy low, sell high"
or maybe it's just the age of ebay...

M

you expect people to sell their items for what they paid for it?

Well, in many cases that would mean prices far higher for many items than what anyone would pay!

There are those with differing opinions, yes.
..and my use of the word "whining" doesn't apply to everyone with an opinion differing from my own, but only those who seem to think simply repeating their want for free or infringed stuff is going to make it happen.

As for buying low and selling high, if you've checked the listing you'll know it has ended and I got just about what I expect, and within a few dollars of what I had in it (as it is the 2nd copy I bought used myself some time ago, as I mentioned).

I don't sell things to make a killing.  I can't believe anyone makes a killing selling Amiga items.

I'll say this.  For those times when I've made an high margin above what I paid for something, I've dumped, given or gotten a fraction for so much more!  That's what happens when a community shrinks, developers leave and items lose their value because a few think it's okay to copy, scan, crack, or otherwise dupe without regard.

On balance, no one really "sells high".  Everyone loses.

Sometimes it seems to me many see ebay listings with a high 'buy it now' price, or what they consider a high starting bid price, and assume you're trying to gouge others.
Do a search for the item in closed listings and find out what that same item sold for within the last 2 yrs and the going price may be precisely what someone else paid for it.

I've had Amiga stuff since 1987, have been a member of multiple users groups and chair of one for a short period, I've given, swapped, sold and donated stuff, and assisted in organizing one commercial show for Amiga vendors.  I've put my time in.  I have no patience for so many of these folks who had no idea what an Amiga was before 2000.

While I've met many interesting and wonderful folks and learned a lot in this community, I've also found several folks who've gone out of their way to make it a tiring experience as they illustrated frustrating, short sighted and damaging behavior to the community and the platform as it has struggled over the last 15 yrs.

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On balance, no one really "sells high". Everyone loses.

M- so in order to balance, one must maximize return?


Sometimes it seems to me many see ebay listings with a high 'buy it now' price, or what they consider a high starting bid price, and assume you're trying to gouge others.
Do a search for the item in closed listings and find out what that same item sold for within the last 2 yrs and the going price may be precisely what someone else paid for it.

M- I don't consider this the "going" price, as you know.

I'm not personally aiming at any sort of balance.  When you list an item on ebay you take your best guess at how to position it.

The market decides.  The value is based on what the buyers think it's worth, not the seller.

The "going price" is what any given sale turns out to be.  I've seen this particular book sell for more than $220 in years past.  At present, it seems like that demand has been diminished by the availability of the digital versions.  Some seem to still want an actual paper book.

The benefit to the community is that anything continues to have any value.

The net is not a good place to really understand people... words don't seen to send how we mean them.
For all we know, everyone is a 70 year old day trader...

If it were common that used Amiga items were bringing huge speculative returns on the scale of securities speculators you'd be seeing a lot more stuff listed on ebay.