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Offline Boot_WB

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Re: Opinions / Info - AmigaOS 4.x Systems
« on: March 16, 2014, 02:39:13 PM »
@OP

OS4.x compatible systems:

1) Amiga + Blizzard/Cyberstorm PPC

Compatible with AmigaOS4.x for classic (developed as a seperate release from AmigaOS4.x)
Not guaranteed to be supported by latest OS release, so you may be left lagging behind. In the long term, has to be a boat anchor to development and testing.
Not all (useful) hardware supported - Blizzard PPC scsi chip being one, so you may be left using slow internal IDE bus.
The slowest of AmigaOS supported hardware, but the last real "Amiga".
Will almost certainly not support latest Linux releases.
Will run AROS
Will run MorphOS with a supported RTG card (2 hour time limited demo version, not currently possible to register).

2) AmigaONE SE (G3)
Dreadful, slow, buggy. Avoid.
The slowest 'NG' hardware. A few people have got them running relatively stably, but it's not going to be an easy experience.

3) AmigaONE XE (G3/G4)
Seem to be a lot more stable, although ymmv with a particular board.
The best (or at least the most numerous, resulting in a higher number of 'good' boards) of the Eyetech AmigaONE boards produced.
Good expandability (4? PCI slots), depending on mods made to the board you MAY be able to use a PCI>PCIe adapter and RadeonHD cards*.
Onboard ATA may need to be limited to PIO modes, onboard USB may not work, can be replaced with PCI cards.

4) micro AmigaONE (G3/G4)
Seem to have more problems than the XE, limited expandability, has onboard graphics (Radeon M9/32MB VRam iirc).
Discuss with uA1 owners for more detail on various issues/quirks.

5) Pegasos 2 (G3/G4)
Similar features to AmigaONE XE, but without any of the problems. Stable as hell in fact.
Supports AGP graphics cards.
Onboard Gigabit ethernet (not sure if supported by AmigaOS) and Firewire 400 (not supported by AmigaOS).
Also runs Linux, Mac-on-Linux, MorphOS, etc (Not sure of AROS support).

6) Sam440ep / flex
Well supported by AmigaOS, but weak cpu.
Flex model has good expansion (PCI), plain ep model less so.
Can be bought new for low** cost (
7) SAM 460 (aka AmigaONE 500 when sold in a case)
Better CPU (G4 class, but no altivec iirc)
Good expandability (PCIe x 4 (x16 physical connector for GFx cards), PCIe x 1, PCI x 1
Expensive, but shiny and new.
Onboard audio had several problems, mainly soved through driver updates, but also a manufacturing error (missing resistor) on the audio subsystem on some (not all) individual units. Not sure if all audio problems are entirely soved yet, check with Metalheart and others on AW.net for more info. Can be easily worked around with audio PCI card.
Onboard SATA is mutually exclusive with onboard PCIe x 1 slot (only one can be in use - pick your poison).
Has limited onboard graphics (SM502)

8) AmigaONE X1000
Powerful (~G4-G5) cpu (Multiple cores/64-bit modes supported in Linux, but not in AmigaOS 4.x at all).
Good expandability (2 x PCIex16 graphics slots (only 16 lanes assigned - can be 1 x 16x, or 2 x 8x) , 2 PCIe slots, 2 PCI slots.
Onboard USB2.
Has Xena (use yet to be determined) bolted to CPU GPIO lanes (use-case for this high-speed, low-latency interface is yet to be determined), and to Xorro slot. Xorro slot can be fitted with an I/O board to present interface outside the case (again, usefulness yet to be determined).
Seem to be a very stable board, although PCI bus is shockingly slow (possibly lack of DMA in AmigaOS4 PCI drivers on this board) so even using a PCI based graphics card may be very slow.

Frankly, were I determined to buy an AmigaOS compatible board, I'd go for the Peg2, Sam440, the X1000 or the SAM460.

Not bothered about having a new board? Peg2 - best all-rounder, most stable G4 board, has altivec.
Just to test compatibillity/play around with as a curiosity? Sam440
As an AmigaOS4.x main machine at a reasonable** price? Sam460
As a dual-booting useful Linux workstation capable of doing some real number crunching/high memory applications, which also runs AmigaOS4.x? X1000

The new boards have companies behind which will give you good hardware support (A-Eon, A-Cube). The Peg2's have had fantastic hardware support for nearly a decade, but are not under any warranty. Eyetech boards aren't in any way supported, although you may be able to get repairs/hardware-mods performed by 3rd parties.

Hardware assessed, I would also base my decision on what is supported RIGHT NOW in AmigaOS, not what has been implied/promised/bet-it-won't-take-two-years'ed.
The last few years have shown how little Hyperion can be relied upon to pull their weight with respect to moving AmigaOS forward, as nearly all progress has been either 3rd party (funded by A-Eon mainly), or community volunteers gaining access to continue elements of OS development (Lyle Hazlewood, Fredrick Wistrom).

Multi-core? Gallium 3D? I'll believe it when I see it _working_.
Open-office? Warp3D? Much more of a chance of appearing, as it's a 3rd-party effort funded by Trevor.

* RadeonHD cards are currently supported in 2D only (Respect to Hans's 2D work, which seems to function well from what I have read (haven't used myself)). Hardware video scaling on these cards requires 3D drivers, which are dependent upon Hyperion's Gallium3D work, which has been some years and appears to have made little progress.
Consequently, video playback performance on these cards really sucks, so until/if/when/somewhere-over-the-rainbow 3D drivers arrive (and video scaling via textures) you're probably better off sticking with a Radeon 9xxx if you want to be able to watch videos or play 3D games.

** Used in the relative sense.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 06:55:40 PM by Boot_WB »
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Offline Boot_WB

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Re: Opinions / Info - AmigaOS 4.x Systems
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 01:54:49 AM »
Quote from: Hans_;760880
Correction, hardware scaling could be done today using CompositeTags(). All that is required is for application developers to actually use it.
Easy to implement for eg mplayer? Why has no-one done this..?

Quote
What can't be done (yet) is directly display YUV bitmaps, which is one of the key things that makes video playback with overlay faster. None of this has anything to do with 3D drivers or lack thereof. 3D drivers won't magically change anything.

Apologies, I must have misunderstood Karlos, or plans have changed (http://www.amiga.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-61993.html)

Karlos wrote:
Quote
Right now, as far as I know no specific implementation exists for the RadeonHD drivers. With adequate 3D support, however, implementing a hardware video surface via video texturing becomes feasible. Since both 3D and video playback are desirable features, it makes sense to focus on the overlap.

What would be the best approach to improving video playback in your experience Hans? (Who do OS4.x users nag at to get this done... :D )

Quote
Define "video playback sucks." My experience has been that video playback of non-HD content via Radeon HD cards is pretty good.** I certainly don't have trouble playing DVDs. If you're talking about HD content, then I'm pretty sure that no AmigaOS system with a Radeon 9xxx can play that smoothly either.

I was trying to be fair but frank. "Pretty good" doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement. Can DVDs be watched on Sam460 with no frame dropping? Does resizing/fullscreening impact upon playback? Can you watch video windowsed/scaled whilst doing other stuff (eg web browsing)? What percent cpu is used by stuff that could/should be offloaded to overlay/textured-video?*

Quote
According to these benchmarks, a Sam460ex with a Radeon HD card (and no overlay) actually plays back video better than a Sam440 with overlay. NOTE: These results were obtained with MPEG-4 video, which is more CPU intensive than the MPEG-2 on DVDs.

Hans


** On systems with an actual PCIe port.

From the same thread (PCI>PCIe adapter notwithstanding, how much bandwidth does 480p video need anyway...), albeit an extreme case:

Quote
The Sam will play back a 720x304 video in full screen without frameskip with overlay

Results from A Sam440ep-Flex 800 with Radeon HD4800 via PCIE adapter

WorkBench:> Programs:Video/DvPlayer/DvPlayer verbose
Media :My Videos/DVDS/Viewed/Limitless {2011} DVDRIP.avi
Video: AVI, 720 x 304, 23.98 fps
Audio: 01 [MP3] 16-bit 44100 Hz, Stereo
Total Nr of Frames: 4358
Nr of Frames played: 1514
Nr of Frames skipped: 2844 (66%)
Total Playback Time: 181.746 seconds
Average Framerate: 23.978 fps
Displayed Framerate: 8.330 fps

Results from Same machine with Radeon 9250 and overlay.

8.WorkBench:> Programs:Video/DvPlayer/DvPlayer verbose
Media :My Videos/DVDS/Viewed/Limitless {2011} DVDRIP.avi
Video: AVI, 720 x 304, 23.98 fps
Audio: 01 [MP3] 16-bit 44100 Hz, Stereo
Total Nr of Frames: 4364
Nr of Frames played: 4364
Nr of Frames skipped: 0 (0%)
Total Playback Time: 182.037 seconds
Average Framerate: 23.973 fps
Displayed Framerate: 23.973 fps

*NB - I'm asking out of curiosity, since I don't have the facility to test myself, not to prove a point. These are things which will probably be a bit testing, but common operations I'd expect to be able to carry out without going slideshow/losing sync.
Efika for example can't handle most of these even with some 480p avi's and a 9250 (when played from USB).
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 02:08:58 AM by Boot_WB »
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Offline Boot_WB

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Re: Opinions / Info - AmigaOS 4.x Systems
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2014, 01:49:58 PM »
Quote from: Hans_;760904

Well, once OpenGL with shader support is available, then application developers could easily write their own GPU assisted YUV=>RGB conversion code. So, he's correct in that. However, that doesn't mean that 3D is the only way, nor would the appearance of 3D drivers magically improve anything.

Don't nag anyone; we're aware of the situation and the various options to fix it. :razz:


No problem, and thanks for the clarification. Could you elaborate on what other options might be available, or what direction you envisage development in this area going. It's interesting and educational. :)

Quote
Yes, I can watch a DVD on the Sam460 without frame skipping. At least, I didn't notice any skipping last time I tried. No video scaling for now. However, that's not due to driver limitations. I can't remember what the CPU usage was.
Quote


So is video playback is currently limited to windowed 1:1 scaling, with no fulll-screen mode?

Quote
Overlay/textured-video handles the YUV=>RGB conversion and scaling. That alone helps quite a bit, but its still no match for a hardware decoder.


Indeed, but every little helps when decoding has to be done by the cpu.

Quote
BTW, the DVD drive can also have a big effect on DVD playback. There are a lot of poor quality drives out there, or drives that really need a firmware update. My A1-XE G4 stopped being able to play DVDs smoothly after "upgrading" to a new DVD drive. So, if someone else with a Sam460 can't play DVDs smoothly, then their DVD drive would be the prime suspect.


I've noticed that myself - my mac-mini's optical drive is a real PITA, although thankfully mplayer config can be adapted for buffering from varous sources, which helps a bit.

Quote
For 704x480 @24fps, you need:
- 30.9 MiB/s when using 32-bit RGBA
- 11.6 MiB/s for the YUV420p pixel format (a possibility with overlay/textured-video)

Based on this GfxBench2D result, a Sam440ep-flex with Radeon HD 6670 can manage:
- 13.52 MiB/s with a CPU-based copy routine
- 90.23 MiB/s if DMA is used via WritePixelArray()/BlitBitMap()

AFAIK, MPlayer and DvPlayer use their own CPU-based copy routine, so the copy bandwidth is killing any chance of smooth playback (NOTE: the CPU needs time to decode the video too). Needless to say, I encourage developers to use WritePixelArray()/BlitBitMap() for transfers to/from VRAM.

By contrast, here are the bandwidth results for the Radeon M9 in a Sam440ep (link):
- 53.45 MiB/s CPU copy
- 90.98 MiB/s WritePixelArray
Clearly the bandwidth is enough for 480p video, especially if overlay is used.

Hans


Indeed, in fact if using YUV & overlay/textured, 720p should be within the bandwidth limitations (other possible bottlenecks aside eg decoding).

Thanks for the detailed answers, and sorry yto the OP for the thread detour ;)
Mac Mini G4 (1.5GHz, 64MB VRam, 1GB Ram): MorphOS 3.6
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Offline Boot_WB

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Re: Opinions / Info - AmigaOS 4.x Systems
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2014, 07:26:35 PM »
Quote from: Hans_;760987
Well, they've pretty much all been covered already. Using a HW video decoder (Radeon HD cards have one) would be the best solution, but it's a huge job. Another option would be waiting for Gallium3D to be available, and updating video players to use custom shaders. Next is textured video, which uses the GPU to render YUV bitmaps straight to screen. It essentially does the same job as the Gallium3D option, but is easier to use (no need to set up custom OpenGL shaders). Finally, while Radeon HD cards don't have overlay hardware, it could probably be emulated. However, that would be more complicated than textured video, and be far less flexible.



Full screen too, although the video might not completely fill the screen. In the case of a 720p video, it matches a 1280x720 screen perfectly, so it does completely fill the screen.

Hans


Thanks for the summary Hans. :)
Mac Mini G4 (1.5GHz, 64MB VRam, 1GB Ram): MorphOS 3.6
Powerbook 5.8 (15", 1.67GHz, 128MB VRam, 1GB Ram): MorphOS 3.8.

Windows-free since 2011-2014 (Damn you Netflix!)