in case you are interested to test new fpga accelerators for a600/a500

[ferrellsl]

I'll keep this quote for the time you make some incompatible change. But honestly, why all the "extended integer unit". What's that stuff good for?

If you don't like it, don't use it or buy.  No one is forcing you to participate in testing or making you purchase it.  You obviously have a personal axe to grind based on some of your comments or you feel you could do a better job than Gunnar.  If that's the case, then put up or shut up.

[ferrellsl]

And a nightmare for any software provider. Gunnar, we are not talking about the intel enterprise here were we have enough market share to force software companies into using another random extension. It's a very small scene, and as soon as instructions are added, you are also creating incompatibilities.

Seriously?   Amiga hobbyists, tinkerers and programmers are in most cases intelligent enough to use said extensions or to avoid them completely.  And who would be forcing you or any other programmer to use the new CPU extensions that Gunnar is adding?  You act as if Gunnar would be standing with a gun to your head or something.  Again, if you don't want to use them, then don't use them and stop coming up with pointless arguments for the sake of being difficult!

As for incompatibilities, again, which ones?  Old software won't be calling any of the new extensions so your argument is moot.

If you feel so strongly about what Gunnar is doing, then why not participate in the testing and help him develop an even better solution rather than slinging mud?

[ferrellsl]

you obviously dont know, that thor collaborates with gunnar on the project and contributes to it as he did to natami.

You are correct and I apologize to Thomas for sounding harsh.  It's clear now that he wants to avoid the same mistakes that were made in past regarding the progression of 68K processors and the Amiga.  But these problems are not restricted to Amigas/68K systems at all.  These problems are inherent to any CPU and its forward progression.  Intel and the x86 world struggled with these same issues back in the day, especially when the 80286 and 80386 lines were released.  The same problems also occurred when programmers wrote x86 code that required an FPU, but an FPU wasn't present.  Back in the day, an FPU for an x86 system was an expensive option. The point I'm trying to make is that yes, there are pitfalls, but they aren't show-stoppers.  And the beauty of an FPGA based 68K system is that it can be patched at will.  If problems are found, they can easily be addressed and the FPGA updated with a new flash.  No need to run around with our hair on fire.  If Gunnar was committing his design to hard silicon, then yes, I'd understand the concern, but he's using an FPGA for good reason.

[ferrellsl]

Hold on a second, I thought this project is about Amiga and not Mac. Why is Matt is focusing on Mac emulation? To me even IF this card does not allow Mac emulation I don't care...I am into improving Amiga hardware to getting modern software for the Amiga system not Mac.

It seem this entire fight is about Mac.

Yeah, if Matt isn't whining about Macintosh compatibility, he's whining about ColdFire compatibility.  He really needs to take his trash talk to a ColdFire forum or start hanging out at a classic Mac site.  He's gotten to be more than just tiring.  He's either trying to "wow" us with his assembler knowledge or he has a personal problem with Gunnar, or maybe both.  Just wish he'd leave it alone.

[ferrellsl]

@MattHey
@Thomas Richter

Why do you two keep bringing up these pointless arguments about additional instructions and Mac compatibility?  It's obvious that you two have something personal against Gunnar since you continue to bombard this thread with the same non-issues.

This is an FPGA project.  If you don't like Gunnar's core, then flash it with one of the Minimig cores and go on your merry way and leave the rest of us alone.  Or better yet, do something constructive like contacting the author of WHDLoad and ask him to update WHDLoad with Gunnar's new core in mind.  That would solve all of these non-problems you two keep bombarding us with.

[ferrellsl]

You mean TG68 core from Tobi, the Minimig core is the chipset, not CPU. The Apollo team is nowhere near anything else but talks when it comes to chipset implimentation, talks about SuperAGA/SAGA when they have not been able to show anything working at all yet.

Matt and Thomas could actually use one of the cores that has been modified to run on the Chameleon.  If my memory serves me correctly, it also has a 68k soft CPU in addition to the classic Amiga chipset.  Or better yet, they can keep using a real classic Amiga or a UAE variant.....problem solved!  Or they could buy a Mining or a Replay board or a Chameleon.  Again, problem solved.   With all the options out there for running classic systems, the arguments they've been posting here are looking very ridiculous.  It's clear they have some personal issue with Gunnar and the technical issues that they keep raising are just smokescreens.

[ferrellsl]

And WHDLoad runs fine on Phoenix - but WHDLoad and the games it supports also run fine on any Amiga with a bit of RAM already, none of the old games have any use for an improved 68k CPU.

The old games and applications may have no use for an improved CPU but some of them will run much too fast, so yes, an updated WHDLoad would be nice to have if you want to run your old software at the intended speed on Gunnar's new FPGA.

[ferrellsl]

No, that would make the whole situation even worse, not better! The point is exactly *not* to segment the platform. How would another core *help* here? Right, not at all, it would make things worse, not better.

Once again, I have absolutely nothing against Gunnar. Why should I? We chat together from time to time, he's doing a great job, and the FPGA project is probably the most sensible project I've seen in years. Just that it doesn't make sense at this point to segment the platform by introducing new incompatibilities. And your answer is to segment it even more, instead of less?

Segmentation of the Amiga market is the single most dominant problem we have here.   No, another problem created. Thank you - what's so hard to understand here? Any attempt to define a "new platform" is again the license to fail because it again splits the user basis. Even less users... Thank you.

 

No, not all. You just do not understand the argument. It is not technical at all. I am just saying that introducing new instructions without any requirements analysis is a bad move and pretty premature.

Segment the platform?  You're joking right?  You do know that Commodore went bankrupt over 20 years ago so there's no longer a platform or any development for it.  And no market either.

Gunnar isn't defining a new platform.  He's taken an old one and improved upon it and you seem to have a problem with that.  We got that.  Now move along and stop bothering the rest of us who would like to see an improved 68K Amiga.

And for someone who has no technical problem with Gunnar's design, you sure do keep pointing out technical issues with Gunnar's work.  

If you don't like Gunnar's design, then don't use it!  Use a real classic Amiga, UAE, or one of the many other FPGA Amigas.  Or maybe you and Matt should join forces and create a design that beats even Gunnar's work.  According to you both, you guys know better than the rest of what we want or what we should have.

[ferrellsl]

Thomas has a problem with Gunnar adding commands without exactly defining for what purpose they are needed. For me it is important that existing software works on it. If there are unused commands or not is not interesting to me.

You and I are in complete agreement here.  And the old software won't be making calls to the new instructions anyway, so there should be few if any problems.  That's why Gunnar is looking for testers.  And if a developer/programmer wants to take advantage of the new instructions, he can.  Of course Thomas would not use ANY of the new instructions.  He's too worried about segmenting the market and the platform.

And Thomas' call for a requirements analysis is ridiculous.  There were no requirements analyses conducted for the original Amiga.  The original Amiga wasn't driven by any requirements whatsoever.  It was driven by engineers who wanted something better than what was already on the market.  And there's no software demand or market today for Amigas to even conduct an analysis in the first place!  If everything in the world was driven by requirement analyses we'd all be driving Volkswagen Beetles for cars and using an abacus instead of computers!

[ferrellsl]

I am not on any crusade against Gunnar, all I did was asking a simple question - will MacOS run under emulation on the Phoenix? That is really a question that can be answered with either "yes" or "no". A whole lot of indicators suggest "no", but Gunnar call those "lies". Promises are worthless in Amigaland, and Natami was a project flooded with promises. And fact is Gunnar has not promised _anything_, but people like you and certain others, keep posting on forums how this and that is promised. I really wish you could stop posting on behalf of people you do not represent. Gunnar has not promised _anything_, and in any case, promises are worthless - only running software has any true value here.

Curious - have you seen AROS running on Phoenix yet?

Here's an idea.  Be a beta tester and see for yourself if MacOS will run on it or not!

[ferrellsl]

I have been following this thread since it was started!. But now it looks more like a war zone, so why cant we agree on a way forward.

And from there how do we get a working product, something that a user can buy. ?

And right now I really need new amiga hardware most of the time I spend on restoration on commodore/amiga to get them to work so would be extremely good if we as a community can please agree on a way forward to develop new modern amiga hardware.

There's no such thing as the Amiga "community".  Amigas are a hobby, not some sort of socialist commune driven by 5-year plans.  Gunnar is developing an improved FPGA-based 68K Amiga.  Use it or don't use it.  If you've been following this thread as closely as you say then you'd know exactly how to obtain a board for testing.

[ferrellsl]

no I have a better idea for him... stay away from the project and be happy with whatever he uses right now

+5

I needed to good laugh today.  Thanks for providing!

[ferrellsl]

That is exactly the reason to moan. Because unless you speak up then he'll go ahead with his plan rather than creating a fractured development for a minority of software.

It's similar to the land grab that Russia did on Ukraine.
 
 He knows that nobody can compete and so he can force whatever he wants, like Putin.

Ahhhh.....nevermind!

[ferrellsl]

How do you know? Do think that products are developed by a couple of engineers sitting in the corner, "hey, this looks cool?". Even if it would, back then you could sell a home computer by good hardware. This does not work this time. Times changed, the platform is much smaller.    How do you know? And how come you know "what is better"? I am not so sure about this...    So why exactly do we need new instructions then if there is no demand for new software? Exactly... The problem at this point is not "we are missing instructions in the core".  

Hardly ever. You probably have never worked in a company?

Actually yes, that's exactly how the first Apple computers were developed.  There was no team of developers and engineers doing any requirements analyses.  Same goes for the Amiga.  And yes, I've worked for several major companies as well as the government so I'm quite familiar with conducting requirements analyses.  Requirements analyses are great for government contracts and the bidding process...horrible for private enterprise and hobbies.  And Gunnar isn't developing a product for the masses.  Those days are long gone. He's developing a hobby board for Amiga hobbyists.  You seem to live in a delusional world where you think there's still an Amiga mass market or one that can be resurrected.

And I can ask you the same question!  How do you know what's best for us or for this project?  You keep whining about the instruction set.  If you don't like the new instructions, stick to the old ones or better yet, just stay away from this project completely and stop confirming your disdain for Gunnar and his work.

I'd much prefer a computer, car, motorcycle, etc.....be developed by engineers who say, wow, this looks cool, let's add this to our project than ANY product developed by bureaucrats who let their designs be driven by a requirements analysis.

[ferrellsl]

If someone could provide information about the time frame, I may very well do that. However, it seems like the developer boards are already have FPGAs too limited to hold the just now recently decides minimum requirements, so I don't know if it is worth it, looks like waiting for the next batch is better option for me. Currently I'm not home anyways, and wont be for another 5 months.

There are two links in the very first post of this thread that explain how to obtain a board for testing.  One board is for the A600.  The other is for an A500/1000/2000.  But yes, you are correct.  The dev/test boards have a smaller FPGA than the consumer boards that will follow, so it may be better to wait.